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+--- Thread: the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players (/showthread.php?tid=1824)
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the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - fresh - 03-17-2011
let's just face it: there aren't enough players to support the traditional model of greening in chaos anymore. starting with 0 or 30 or even 50 bounty was fine when there were 30-100 players in the arena and you had teams of up to 7 helping you green and getting you ready to fight. there was action enough for everybody in those days, whether they wanted to green or not - and what's important is that the promise of that action meant players were willing to green up and make it a little more high-stakes when they did make it to the fight.
forcing players to green was fine when there were *always* other pilots in; that's simply not the case anymore. a substantial portion of the time, the zone is empty. THIS IS A TERRIBLE THING. when there are no other pilots in the zone, or only 1 or 2, the fact that you have to spend 2-4 minutes greening up before you can fight on an even keel is a huge barrier to entry for most people.
we want to ENCOURAGE people to unspec. making them green up before they can fight DISCOURAGES THEM from doing so. worse, it discourages them from dying. this leads, eventually, to the kind of play that drives most league players away from chaos pub in disgust. you guys know who i'm talking about.
* IT'S NOT CHAOS PUB WITHOUT GREENING. okay - i accept that. but chaos pub, to make sense, always depended on a bigger population of players than it has now. we need some sort of hybrid - a zone where greening is still a part of play, but one that also immediately encourages players to unspec and jump in the action right away.
we can have this zone. start players with a full ship - full energy, full weapons, full ?status. those who want the traditional chaos flavor (mine repping, lobbing blueberries from afar and repping anybody who comes close) can green for their specials - for reps, bursts, bricks, whatever. you can even make people green for antiwarp, stealth, x-radar, and cloak. but don't make people green just to be able to play - you can't afford it anymore.
please, chime in. we need a discussion.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - NuB KiNG - 03-17-2011
something has to change in chaos pub, or else the zone dies completely
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - PoLiX - 03-17-2011
Could always make it like the freq size, hybrid to the population. As population goes up, initial bounty goes down. Could even have it done at the same time the frequency size changes.
Definately something to think about.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - fresh - 03-17-2011
[quote name='PoLiX' timestamp='1300395865' post='273674']
Could always make it like the freq size, hybrid to the population. As population goes up, initial bounty goes down. Could even have it done at the same time the frequency size changes.
Definately something to think about.
[/quote]
yea I had thought about this. that way, the more players, the more like chaos it becomes. wouldn't be terrible hard to implement either, right?
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - fresh - 03-17-2011
i think everyone agrees that some sort of change is needed - what i'm saying is that the best place to start would be with the green settings. with this change, everybody gets something.
1) other pilots from other zones can hop in, get a taste of our near-perfect ship settings, and get hooked.
2) existing players still get what they want out of chaos pub.
3) league players aren't so disgusted at the thought of jumping in pub when they know they don't have to green just to get a fight-worthy ship again.
let specials be what they are - icing on the cake of the SVS settings we know and love. if people want to eat icing, let them - but don't make people pay to have their cake.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - Nude For Satan - 03-18-2011
What are the settings still left that aren't necessarily 100% upon spawning?
From memory its bullet level, bomb level, maximum energy level, antiwarp, x-radar, bouncing bullets, multifire, and (if spider) cloak.
The ?status settings (rotation, recharge, speed, umm can't remember, think there's more, oh shrapnel) are already beefed up to be automatically 100% upon spawn.
In my opinion, greening is fairly quick. In a low population there's little threat to safety while greening. If pop is higher then there's more chance of having a co-greener. Also, though I could be wrong, there also seem to be more greens. The range is definitely wider when pop is higher.
You don't have to green everything attribute to full, either. Its challenging but entertaining to engage with only red bombs. Red (and to some extent yellow) bullets are not only a fun challenge, but are often viewed so endearingly that people express annoyance publicly when they lose them to blues.
Maximum Energy Level is probably the only one of all those non-100% attributes with which I'd think of agreeing with you. 1500 or 1600 max is doable, but its the 1100s through 1300s are pretty frustrating!
Its never crossed my mind that a player in spec is there because they are afraid to green. I guess that's the "now" generation.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - fresh - 03-18-2011
[quote name='Nude For Satan' timestamp='1300407445' post='273688']
there also seem to be more greens. The range is definitely wider when pop is higher.
[/quote]
there are more greens. green quantity was increased for the same reasons that start bounty went up.
Quote:You don't have to green everything attribute to full, either. Its challenging but entertaining to engage with only red bombs. Red (and to some extent yellow) bullets are not only a fun challenge, but are often viewed so endearingly that people express annoyance publicly when they lose them to blues.
whether it's your max nrg, bullet, or bomb level, you're fighting at a distinct disadvantage without a greened ship.
Quote:Its never crossed my mind that a player in spec is there because they are afraid to green. I guess that's the "now" generation.
this is not a generational thing. people of any age will jump through hoops when they think it's worth it. the point is this: when most of the time there's less than 10 players in chaos, it's not worth it to jump through the greening hoop anymore.
we need to remove the barriers to entry in this zone. the skill barrier is more than enough on its own.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - Nude For Satan - 03-18-2011
Its a fair point. Are you suggesting that when we spawn, bullet level, bomb level, maximum energy level, bouncing bullets and multifire are all at full/available by default? Or perhaps those plus antiwarp, x-radar, and (if spider) cloak? Based on the argument of low population, I see what you're getting at, though I would still be surprised if folks are actually sitting in spec because of it. Sitting in spec 'cause there isn't anyone of value in play to fight, maybe, but not because greening takes more legwork. I could be wrong though *shrug*, I usually am.
I'd personally like to see 1 rep awarded upon spawning by default, but that's just me.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - fresh - 03-18-2011
[quote name='Nude For Satan' timestamp='1300428759' post='273701']
Are you suggesting that when we spawn, bullet level, bomb level, maximum energy level, bouncing bullets and multifire are all at full/available by default?
[/quote]
pretty much yes.
Quote:Or perhaps those plus antiwarp, x-radar, and (if spider) cloak?
not as important. could go either way.
my main thrust is to leave the vast majority of the greening to be in pursuit of specials. repels, bricks, bursts, whatever floats your chaos boat. that way people who don't care about specials can still just hop in and fight without being afraid of / annoyed by dying and the greening that comes along with that. we just dont have enough players anymore.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - PlayWolf - 03-18-2011
I like the fact to run around and green.. always gave me something to do and something for someone to chase me for.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - Caerbannog - 03-18-2011
[quote name='Wolfie' timestamp='1300463848' post='273722']
I like the fact to run around and green.. always gave me something to do and something for someone to chase me for.
[/quote]
As a previous chaos addict, now a spec lurker, the runners we have in the zone today would've been fantastic back in the 70+ population days. Nowadays when we have 5 players, it just kills the zone quicker.
I'm a bunny of dynamic things myself, it covers both ends. If we could have dynamic green amounts / ratios (as in what's in the greens) / arena size / freq size, it'd be great.
The !bonus system is an obvious downfall of spawning 100%s .. helps suiciders quite a bit.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - Yupa - 03-18-2011
Last time I was in Chaos every ship started fully greened ââ¬â did they finally undo that idiocy? You have to green in Chaos, otherwise you're in some diluted substitute.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - fresh - 03-18-2011
[quote name='Yupa' timestamp='1300475039' post='273731']
Last time I was in Chaos every ship started fully greened ââ¬â did they finally undo that idiocy? You have to green in Chaos, otherwise you're in some diluted substitute.
[/quote]
fully greened ships have never been the case.
my point is that chaos as we knew it (7 player freqs, 100 player arenas, huge map, etc etc) doesn't exist anymore anyways. we need to do what we can to both a) preserve existing playerbase and <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':p' /> encourage people to play. this or some population-based on-the-fly adjustment of starting bounty is the best compromise.
sometimes you have to compromise. convoluted rankings and bonus systems aren't the answer to this problem.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - Yupa - 03-19-2011
...you're losing me. If they haven't been fully greened, then they were at least incredibly well greened compared to classic Chaos.
They already have population-based on-the-fly adjustment, and it doesn't work. For that matter it hasn't worked in any zone that has implemented it, including Powerball, and if memory serves even EG and TW have some changes in place.
You can't preserve existing players (that like the altered sets) and encourage other players that prefer other sets (like the old ones) simultaneously. You can only aim for specific sets you think more people will like... but if you can't make up your mind and _stick_ to one for a while, you will never accrue a decent pop regardless.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - fresh - 03-19-2011
[quote name='Yupa' timestamp='1300498504' post='273738']
...you're losing me. If they haven't been fully greened, then they were at least incredibly well greened compared to classic Chaos.
[/quote]
it's been a progression. i'm just advocating taking the next step in that progression.
0 bty start -> 30 bty start-> 50 bty start -> 50 bty start with full charge, thrust, and rotation -> xx bty start with full recharge, thrust, rotation, bombs, bullets, and max energy, and preserve the greening dynamic that many chaos players love but limit it to getting x, anti, stealth, cloak, and the special items that are the lifeblood of many chaos strategies.
Quote:They already have population-based on-the-fly adjustment, and it doesn't work. For that matter it hasn't worked in any zone that has implemented it, including Powerball, and if memory serves even EG and TW have some changes in place.
when you say it doesn't work and hasn't worked in any zone that's implemented it.. can you clarify? more people might prefer smallpub
but that doesn't make the scaling a failure. i'd actually argue it's pretty damn good, considering the alternative. warzone on sundays uses similar start bty / attach bty scaling.
Quote:You can't preserve existing players (that like the altered sets) and encourage other players that prefer other sets (like the old ones) simultaneously. You can only aim for specific sets you think more people will like... but if you can't make up your mind and _stick_ to one for a while, you will never accrue a decent pop regardless.
this is a fair point - but I don't think it's so black and white. adding full energy and full bombs and bullets to the things you already start with doesn't make *that* big a difference in chaos (given that with 50 greens, you start with something close to what i'm proposing at least 1/3 of the time) and yet, and this is the key, would mean a lot of the people who aren't hard-core chaos junkies would be much more likely to hop in and explode spaceships on a casual basis. this would be a good thing for the zone.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - Yupa - 03-19-2011
And that's why Chaos will probably never recover under this management. Luckily everyone has the sets and proper maps.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - PoLiX - 03-19-2011
Being Hallu was in control when you played Chaos before, and is in control now, not quite sure how management "change" has destroyed your Chaos. Passplay didn't alter much during Hallu's break. Sneakerz might have, but doubtful he did much derastic.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - Camel - 03-19-2011
We can change whatever settings we want but at the end Trench Wars is the place all new players go to. We dont have influx. Trench Wars is "representing" (being #1 with population) our Subspace for many years, while it totally blows
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - hallucination - 03-19-2011
First, thanks for posting, everyone. It's good to have a civil discussion of the issues in depth.
The situation of few/no players is a bad one and I'm very concerned. fresh speculates that it's the greening that is discouraging people from playing. I'm skeptical that it is a significant factor... Immediate play and greening are topics of interest though. First some facts:
-- The number of greens, green dispersion, has been dynamically adjusted since 2000-1 along with the freqsize. There are wildly more greens than SVS settings. Polix suggested dynamically changing Initial Bty along with freqsize -- it could be added.
-- Nude is right that you almost always get a full ship except for max nrg (the biggest reason to green), x, and aw. Toy amounts are random. Yupa said "If they haven't been fully greened, then they were at least incredibly well greened compared to classic Chaos." which is correct.
-- When Jeff et al were actively working on ss, settings changed _very_ frequently and for the most part the general population was not consulted nor informed. Settings have continued to change since Chaos became player run, albeit more slowly, and there have been very few changes in recent years (the shark being the notable exception). The population has always been informed of any permanent changes. The cumlative changes are mostly "none to tiny" but some of the changes are hugely different -- like the two points above.
-- Yupa said, "They already have population-based on-the-fly adjustment, and it doesn't work. For that matter it hasn't worked in any zone that has implemented it," When I first did Chaos-Bot with dynamic freq and green adjustments, Chaos had a very significant population increase and dynamic adjustments worked here quite well for 10 yrs. Polix points out that when Yupa was playing Chaos, Chaos-Bot had already been dynamically altering these settings for years.
-- Under passplay the initial bty did get raised from 30 to 50 (narrowing the difference even more between Chaos and Alpha).
-- Originally, greening was part of the penalty for dying. When you die, you are weaker and need to green for a few minutes to get back to a full strength ship, so -- don't die! As Yupa implies, with the initial settings and huge number of greens available today, it's not much of a penalty, and imo has significantly altered the game design consequences of Chaos. Dying used to mean something -- now it means little -- you have a very good chance of immediately getting a ship that's good enough to fight with.
-- DZ had full ship spawns as fresh suggests, and yet they were losing population and merged into Chaos many years ago. League pub had full ship spawns, yet one of the driving factors of League merging into Chaos was that League Pub was losing players. Btw, I loved DZ and played it often.
-- There are strong arguments for both leaving settings as they are/were and going forward. This controversy is an old one, and not everyone will be pleased by whatever is done. I have some radical ideas for changes, but I'm very much worried about it 'not being Chaos anymore.' Yupa and others already feel this way -- with good reason really -- the vast majority of settings are very close to/unchanged from SVS settings, but a few are very different (like greens) and substantially alter the game dynamics.
-- All zones are losing players, including Trench. Chaos still actually has about the same percentage of players that it has had over the last years (about 10%) -- that doesn't make the number of players we have ok.
There are many factors that have influenced the population flucuations over the years, but I think greens and greening has been a minor factor. No possible change in green settings is going to get very many people out of spec (or out of pracs, or out of TW) and playing in Chaos. I think Camel hit the nail on the head -- the fundamental problem is retaining new players.
Why do new players not stay? Basically, because getting killed over and over by multi-year vet players is no fun.
The problem lies in the maturation cycle of the game (and recurs in many settings) -- Chaos always was an intermediate zone and hostile to new players -- early on, however there was Alpha. After Alpha, there was EG and TW where newbs could get some kills and figure out the basics. Now, there is no "Alpha" at all. TW is suffering from the same problem now -- too high a percentage of experienced players -- they too are not keeping new players now (I've heard 99% loss rate there recently).
In a sports program, you separate players by ability level. Put an advanced player with a beginner and neither player has fun or learns much -- only a teacher-student relationship is viable for that situation (and most advanced players really aren't teachers and don't want to be).
Chaos historically has been an intermediate level zone. Newbs did not belong there. Chaos' players are even stronger now (overall), and newbs still do not belong there. Alpha had a point limit of 5000 which discouraged players from staying -- only lamers would stay by getting a new nick. The removal of the point limit was a bad thing imo -- that is when alpha ceased function as a place for newbs to learn by playing other newbs. The only new players we get are people who are very experienced from other zones (like EG or TW [though they have a huge learning curve to overcome]), or brave souls who are brought here by a friend who helps them start to get up the learning curve to compete (a very high percentage of new players without friends will not talk, and leave after going somewhere between 0-3 and 1-10).
League players are not going to play in Chaos because of the stigma of being killed by lowly Chaos Players. Many of the League players that do play Chaos avoid engaging other league players -- a death in Chaos is a bad thing no matter who they die to since it's perceived as "Intermediate" and not as "Open/All levels" (which is would be better -- not sure if that's possible though).
I think the key for Subspace going forward would be to 'force' new players, all new players, to play each other -- create a new Alpha. This means routing new players to a single arena/zone, preferably with teachers (NOT grief players, mine reppers, cloakers etc. that enjoy easy kills on newbs/weak players). In this arena, or better yet, series of arenas, you learn the skills needed to compete in SVS (the most complex and deep form of the game) in an appropriate sequence. Flying first; then shooting; then dodging/prox; then energy management; then repelling; then x radar. That's the minimum set to start to compete in Chaos.
This is both a very old idea (I kicked around the multiple learning arenas back in the early 2000s) and a new idea (get all the zones to sign on to forcing newbs away until they learn the ropes -- not sure about how willingly others would do this thing).
I know this is not a very satisfactory post, but it's one current line of thinking I've been having.
I am not averse to doing experiments, and having a DZ day/time and a Classic SVS day/time is something I'd definitely like to do as "In Chaos" events (i.e. won't count toward Reset Winners, but takes place in Chaos). So trying out fresh's idea is doable.
--hallu
P.S. What is this "chaos pub" of which you speak? <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':p' /> I don't know about you, but I play Chaos; or sometimes I call it Chaos Zone.
the need to change greening - Now: How to keep new players - Yupa - 03-20-2011
[quote name='PoLiX' timestamp='1300560820' post='273755']
Being Hallu was in control when you played Chaos before, and is in control now, not quite sure how management "change" has destroyed your Chaos. Passplay didn't alter much during Hallu's break. Sneakerz might have, but doubtful he did much derastic.
[/quote]
He was in control in 1997? I guess he just had a good run of not screwing things up, then.
[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1300577453' post='273763']When I first did Chaos-Bot with dynamic freq and green adjustments, Chaos had a very significant population increase and dynamic adjustments worked here quite well for 10 yrs.[/quote]
10 yrs? That doesn't sound remotely correct. Pretty sure I remember (and I have a good memory) playing Chaos less than 10 years ago and it not being so changed.
The only people I've seen in Chaos in recent visits that are interested in putting any time into it are old timers, people who prefer the classic settings, leaguers ââ¬â but they find these sets only in subarenas.
[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1300577453' post='273763']Polix points out that when Yupa was playing Chaos, Chaos-Bot had already been dynamically altering these settings for years.[/quote]
See preceding.
[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1300577453' post='273763']There are many factors that have influenced the population flucuations over the years, but I think greens and greening has been a minor factor. No possible change in green settings is going to get very many people out of spec (or out of pracs, or out of TW) and playing in Chaos. I think Camel hit the nail on the head -- the fundamental problem is retaining new players.[/quote]
I think you underestimate the satisfaction people get out of having to work for something, and the motivation someone can get knowing there will be a fully greened person to kill soon, or an ungreened person to neg immediately.
[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1300577453' post='273763']Chaos always was an intermediate zone and hostile to new players[/quote]
Eh, well that's what the original zone descriptions said, but Chaos always had plenty of newbies. I think I spent all of 30 minutes in Alpha before going to Chaos, and it wasn't because I was amazingly good after that much time.
[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1300577453' post='273763']'force' new players, all new players, toââ¬Â¦a single arena/zone[/quote]
Seems worth a try, but I think you'd want it to be a matter of excluding people with certain stats (without booting them instantly when they reach them <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blum.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':p' />), and not forcibly excluding newbs from being cannon fodder in other zones should they elect to be.
[quote name='hallucination' timestamp='1300577453' post='273763']Put an advanced player with a beginner and neither player has fun or learns much[/quote]
In sports maybe, but I don't see this applying to SubSpace or Chaos. Are we talking about the same game, the same zone? A game where EG and TW exist? A zone where chirp flew a lancaster back and forth in a tube all day long holding down the TAB button? Where people vulched negs constantly? Mine rep? Port & burst? I'd love to know what game chock full of honorable players that only enjoy themselves in fair fights you've been playing. I'm no negger, but I have plenty of fun killing newbs and fighting players closer to my own ability and beyond it.
I don't play Chaos because it's not the Chaos I know. Others don't play it because it's empty. If the sets were right, I'd play it, and it wouldn't be empty. ;p
Like I said, you can satisfy old players or you can satisfy new ones, but you can't have both, not without calling the zone something else.