+- SVS Subspace Forums (http://forum.svssubspace.com)
+-- Forum: 4v4 League (http://forum.svssubspace.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=60)
+--- Forum: Pro League Discussion (http://forum.svssubspace.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=39)
+--- Thread: Reform The Zone (rewrite the bots, move to ASSS, etc) (/showthread.php?tid=13903)
Reform The Zone (rewrite the bots, move to ASSS, etc) - Three - 01-02-2015
Moderator Edit: Have moved these posts from "Move the zone" to a conversation of their own - Nude
(12-31-2014, 01:33 AM)BlueGoku Wrote: TW has suffered the same population decline as every other zone. They have a billion robots, though, which artificially increases their stats. But any time I've popped in there in the past little while to see what's going on (during the 30 seconds I can stay connected before it boots me for resolution) the zone has seemed fairly dead. A pub going on, sure, and maybe javs, but that's it.
With that said, consolidation is probably the only way the game will survive another few years, but every zone needs to first get on ASSS instead of continuing to use severely outdated and limited server software.
After that's done, continuum could essentially be one game world, with tons of different arenas all operating independently.
I agree. However, this won't ever happen. People in "power" sitting in their command centers (mothers basements) don't want to step aside.
Countless times this has been tried. I don't see hallu, passplay, simonsays, and/or ghost ship knuckling under, sorry.
A few of us 2 years ago funded the bot coding and development for new pro bots, had another zone ready to go (ASSS server), new maps, adjusted settings, a dedicated server, etc. Shot down. Dueling was automated - it was pretty sick. If anyone wants the entire story and the dealings with "management", as it were, talk to Devious. Your head will spin.
To quote a fantastic low budget movie Cube which seems fitting:
"This may be hard for you to understand, but there is no conspiracy. Nobody is in charge. It, it's a headless blunder operating under the illusion of a master plan. Can you grasp that? Big Brother is not watching you."
That is the best description of Subspace "management" I can think of.
The sad fact is the game will die. Enjoy what seasons we have left.
Feel free to try.
RE: Move the zone. - oldvet - 01-02-2015
(01-02-2015, 06:59 PM)Three Wrote:(12-31-2014, 01:33 AM)BlueGoku Wrote: TW has suffered the same population decline as every other zone. They have a billion robots, though, which artificially increases their stats. But any time I've popped in there in the past little while to see what's going on (during the 30 seconds I can stay connected before it boots me for resolution) the zone has seemed fairly dead. A pub going on, sure, and maybe javs, but that's it.
With that said, consolidation is probably the only way the game will survive another few years, but every zone needs to first get on ASSS instead of continuing to use severely outdated and limited server software.
After that's done, continuum could essentially be one game world, with tons of different arenas all operating independently.
I agree. However, this won't ever happen. People in "power" sitting in their command centers (mothers basements) don't want to step aside.
Countless times this has been tried. I don't see hallu, passplay, simonsays, and/or ghost ship knuckling under, sorry.
A few of us 2 years ago funded the bot coding and development for new pro bots, had another zone ready to go (ASSS server), new maps, adjusted settings, a dedicated server, etc. Shot down. Dueling was automated - it was pretty sick. If anyone wants the entire story and the dealings with "management", as it were, talk to Devious. Your head will spin.
To quote a fantastic low budget movie Cube which seems fitting:
"This may be hard for you to understand, but there is no conspiracy. Nobody is in charge. It, it's a headless blunder operating under the illusion of a master plan. Can you grasp that? Big Brother is not watching you."
That is the best description of Subspace "management" I can think of.
The sad fact is the game will die. Enjoy what seasons we have left.
Feel free to try.
Agreed. The game will die, but it has lasted much longer than anyone would have guessed.
Nacre will be finishing up Subspace 2 soon, certainly. Or perhaps someone can commission Rod Humble's game dev company to make a sequel. Btw, Cube is a great movie.
RE: Move the zone. - Three - 01-02-2015
One more thing - Chaos public - this died way ahead of when it should have because the map was/is the size of Texas and the powers that be refused to make a much smaller map despite the dwindling player base. No one to blame but those in charge.
Edit: old vet - yeah I loved Cube. 2 and 3 were garbage but 1 was solid.
RE: Reform The Zone (rewrite the bots, move to ASSS, etc) - Nude For Satan - 01-03-2015
As I'm very ignorant of the software involved, I am going to ask a stupid question: what's the difference between ASSS and SubGame? (I'm guessing those are the two competing ... things). I understand ASSS is newer. Are we the only ones left on SubGame?
RE: Reform The Zone (rewrite the bots, move to ASSS, etc) - High Gain - 01-03-2015
A few things:
1. I would not trust Nacre with a cup of coffee, even though he is hilarious.
2. No, most zones don't use ASSS. They claim it is unstable with high populations. Might even be true.
3. And yes, Devious and some of the rest of DID develop a full ASSS server with all the bells and whistles. Mothballed, for lack of billing access. Peeking told me I was a pussy for giving up too easily. He's usually right.
HG
RE: Reform The Zone (rewrite the bots, move to ASSS, etc) - BlueGoku - 01-04-2015
(01-03-2015, 07:01 AM)Nude For Satan Wrote: As I'm very ignorant of the software involved, I am going to ask a stupid question: what's the difference between ASSS and SubGame? (I'm guessing those are the two competing ... things). I understand ASSS is newer. Are we the only ones left on SubGame?
ASSS is newer server software that allows for quite a few things that subgame does not. I switched HZ to ASSS years ago when we basically ran out of developers and had to start fresh in order to continue updating the zone. Rather than have the new devs learn subgame and bot coding, we switched to ASSS and they learned to code modules instead. Here are a few differences and features with ASSS:
1) No need for bots. There are "modules" instead which are loaded up by the arena and can do the same things as bots and more. One of the major benefits (and HZ has taken full advantage) is that modules are, for lack of a better term, modular. Meaning you can have one module that handles basic 4v4 gameplay and load it up in every arena. You can then have a module that handles SQL (for alias searches, roster movement, etc) and load that up as well. In the end what you have is a very clean interface on the back end where if you want to make any changes to certain things, you do not have to mess with the entire bot code, you only deattach the module you want to change, and then load it back up after the change is done. All while the zone is still online.
2) Because modules are directly linked to the server, you can do some really neat things. For those of you that haven't been in HZ in years, we have a replay module. All big plays are saved (in league) and can be replayed back for entertainment or ruling purposes. IE. if a goal was close to being a crease, you can replay it back for another look (or multiple looks).
3) The most important feature so far has been the ability to run multiple games and game types in one arena. One of our big problems in HZ was that once 12 people were in the game, in order for more people to play they would have to go to a different arena, splitting up the player base. Often, people would rather sit in spec and chat in the "main" arena rather than go and play in a different arena where their friends weren't there to chat with. We now have 4 (or 5?) rinks in the main pub arena. Players can chat with their friends while they play, and the games are all completely separate. Module green text (goals, penalties, etc) are only displayed to the players in their respective rinks (and the spectators of that particular rink).
I think that 3rd feature would work wonderfully for chaos pub. Not so much for 4v4 because the playing area takes up the whole (or majority) of the map, but for pub you can have half a map of DZ, half a map of chaos, or whatever. That way people can actually play what they want (I'd love it if DZ was put into pub, does anybody actually play chaos anymore?)
(01-03-2015, 01:46 PM)High Gain Wrote: 2. No, most zones don't use ASSS. They claim it is unstable with high populations. Might even be true.
HG
That is incorrect. It used to be the case many, many years ago, but it has been fixed. We've had nights with 100+ in the zone and we have not had issues. Despite it being fixed, even if it WAS an issue, SVS would certainly not be one of those high population zones given that arenas are max 8 people and there are only multiple arenas on weekends, where maybe around, what, 24? 32? people playing?
RE: Reform The Zone (rewrite the bots, move to ASSS, etc) - Peeking Duck? - 01-06-2015
(01-04-2015, 05:37 PM)BlueGoku Wrote: That is incorrect. It used to be the case many, many years ago, but it has been fixed. We've had nights with 100+ in the zone and we have not had issues. Despite it being fixed, even if it WAS an issue, SVS would certainly not be one of those high population zones given that arenas are max 8 people and there are only multiple arenas on weekends, where maybe around, what, 24? 32? people playing?
Would be useful to get a definitive reply to this and that can only come from Hallu.
RE: Reform The Zone (rewrite the bots, move to ASSS, etc) - BlueGoku - 01-06-2015
(01-06-2015, 10:16 PM)Peeking Duck? Wrote:(01-04-2015, 05:37 PM)BlueGoku Wrote: That is incorrect. It used to be the case many, many years ago, but it has been fixed. We've had nights with 100+ in the zone and we have not had issues. Despite it being fixed, even if it WAS an issue, SVS would certainly not be one of those high population zones given that arenas are max 8 people and there are only multiple arenas on weekends, where maybe around, what, 24? 32? people playing?
Would be useful to get a definitive reply to this and that can only come from Hallu.
As someone who has ran an ASSS zone (and made the switch from subgame to ASSS) that has had 100+ in the zone (and probably 60 playing at once) I just definitively told you that is not an issue
. What would be useful is if work started on ASSS and ASSS modules, and we were able to actually test it in an off-season. Maybe run a powerball or 3v3 league as an offseason event for a month or two on the ASSS server. In development there will be always be bugs and glitches, but you won't be able to fix them until you actually start doing some proper tests. It's not enough to get a side test zone going and have a 4v4 match there, you will never replicate all the potential problems that would occur if the zone was running 24/7 and had multiple arenas, sql queries, etc. going on the whole time.
"Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing toward what will be."
RE: Reform The Zone (rewrite the bots, move to ASSS, etc) - Nude For Satan - 01-07-2015
Three said this New World Server had been developed and was ready to go ... I was just thinking, how about it's put up separately, stand-alone, where players (and the developers such as Devious) can test and refine, see how it goes ... nothing beats a hands-on chance to identify any issues and to get feedback.
That could only be win-win. There's the opportunity to put the server up and visibly "sell" it to the patrons. If its great, then it'll be seen as so. If it falls over, then the current system isn't affected.
It would be difficult to roadtest within the current Chaos/League server as it's ASSS. I am presuming you can't run ASSS side-by-side with Subgame. You'd have to risk losing everything currently here without knowing whether the new one would work. So it would have to be a new server. That has to be possible, Axe Demento did it ...