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+--- Thread: Chaos Zone Observations (/showthread.php?tid=911)
Chaos Zone Observations - Sue E. Side - 10-04-2012
I'd like to think these observations of a Chaos Zone diehard with a shamefully high amount of playtime under his belt will bring up some discussion about the state of the zone and whether or not changes should be made, but I'm throwing them out there regardless:
- Streaks/Sprees
A slick addition. Added new stats for goal-oriented players, especially significant because it rewards those choosing to fight rather than run and encourages players to keep their high bounty in play.
- Green Settings
There are just way too many of them floating around and the fact remains that prizes such as repels and bursts became repulsively easy to collect in a zone that already starts you off with a well-stocked ship. It's not uncommon for a target to use four or more repels in just a minute's time, among other defensive measures, which can grow incredibly frustrating when targets are constantly running on a map I'm sure many will agree is too large for the low population it houses. Greening used to be a neccessity once upon a time, requiring players to pick them up as often as possible, adding a layer of depth to the gameplay that's now practically nonexistent due not only to the green and ship settings, but also bonuses and flagging rewards. I miss playing with/against ships of varying speeds, recharge rates, etc.
- Bonuses
Bonus points are either too easy to obtain or cost of bonuses too low, take your pick. It should not be this easy for players to prize themselves multiple sets of toys in a zone where they're already extremely easy to come by via greening, flagging, playing the weekly trivia game or being showered with free greens just because a zone staffer feels like it. It's been mentioned before by SuG, but these bonuses provide absolutely no downside to their use other than depleting your bonus point total and adding one, such as warping you to a random location with depleted energy after each use would cause players to think twice before abusing the feature.
- Flagging
Let's face it, what should have been one of many game styles offered wound up actually hijacking the entire zone. If you're interested in flagging or not, chances are some or all of your targets are and you will have to deal with the consequences whether that means being hunted by a 4-5 man freq at low bounty because your name just turned red or struggling to find targets because the flag carriers choose to play it safe by removing themselves from the action. More often than not the flag game tends to contribute to the culture of cowardice that I've noticed to be unfortunately predominant in the zone since my return last May. "Keep away" became a common strategy, grabbing a flag and flying around the quiet edges of the map, avoiding conflict at all costs in a zone originally designed to bring players together. It's had a significant impact on the zone in a number of different areas such as the aforementioned cowardly style as well as increasing the number of high bounty kills and sheer volume of toys in play. Increasing the flag timer from 3 to 12 minutes has improved the game somewhat, but the bottomline remains the same: I loathe that a kill or be killed zone has become a flagging zone.
- Map Bottlenecks
I still love this map, even after all the minor changes it has undergone over the years, aside from the reset/MoC winners rectangle eating up precious real estate in the center of the map, but I can't help thinking the flow of the game can be significantly improved with just a few minor bottlenecks being opened up, such as the O12 intersection possibly allowing access to/from all sides of the tunnel. The population numbers being what they are, we should be finding ways to imptove the flow of the game rather than slowing it down - it's already easy enough for a coward to run all day long without giving them endless tunnels to mine/brick, too.
- Safe Timer
We recently had a 12 hour safe timer implemented for a reset and I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say most opinions about the setting were negative. There was/is absolutely no reasonable argument to be made for it, just as I don't understand why the 15 minute timer of old was replaced with a 45 minute timer. The 15 minute timer not only served as a more than adequate way for people to run AFK for bathroom breaks, phone calls, etc without losing their bounty, but it added a safe camping option that no longer exists: turf wars would sometimes erupt when hunters chased targets into a safe zone knowing they had to poke their head out to reset their 15 minute timer or lose their ship/streak. Safe to say that increasing the timer to 45 mins made camping those safe zones an absolute waste of time. As an added bonus, reverting back to 15 mins could serve to remove the burden of having the bot remove/reprize anti-warp and reset kill streaks.
- Reset Winners
If stat winners are allowed to employ virtually any means neccessary to achieve their goals, such as abusing ship changing and Esc Q to win ratio, there's no integrity and without integrity they're nothing more than personal goals - no need to dedicate a precious chunk of the map to glamorize them. There was the one incident in recent months of Ethylene being disqualified from a reset, but questions regarding that case have gone unanswered.
In short, I think too much has been done to "dumb down" the zone to make the game more accessible for newer players when the fact of the matter is there is virtually no retention of those new players. Best to keep the zone as true to its roots as possible, catering instead to the oldschool vets we know log in everyday rather than the rare newbie that likely won't change his decision to stay or leave based on these settings anyway.
Chaos Zone Observations - ZiGNoTZaG - 10-04-2012
Green Settings - The high amount of greens is literally the only counter to the rampant ship cycling. If one was to reduce the green spawn, then ships need to start without toys(in fact they should no matter what). In that situation you are going to alienate at least one set of players. If you reduce green spawn then you make it even easier for someone who has no moral aptitude about what should be considered fair play to keep changing ships for more items to spam against someone who is trying to play the game as intended.
If you change the ships to start without toys, those ship cyclers will suddenly find that the skill-set they have been maintaining is obsolete.
So either you leave things the way they are, or you make a choice between satisfying one camp of the other. Honestly ship cyclers are the burnt out folks who have reached a peak in what they are capable of doing so they resort to choosing ship 6 and hitting the rockets. Take away the items on spawn and you basically neuter them. Would not be a huge loss, as players of this type generally don't put in long consecutive hours of game-play. They do, however, get players that are playing with the confines of not abusing the system, to quit playing.
You take away items on spawn, you lose one player, who doesn't play that much anyway. The way it is, you often lose two, the ship cycler often quits out once he manages to achieve his goal, and the player that was the target of his abuse of the system.
People rely so much on specials, its often hilariously predictable. Being raised in DZA, where there were no items, every time someone comes after me specials blazing, uses them all up and then disengages is absolutely hilarious, and as good as a win.
Chaos Zone Observations - Sue E. Side - 10-04-2012
A few counterpoints to your argument:
1) I'm in no way, shape or form for removing all toys from freshly spawned ships. That's extreme. I am, however, all for the 30 bounty start that was in place at the height of this zone's popularity. Chances are if you started with a good stock of toys, your ship's status was lacking as an offset and vice versa. The 30 bty start made ship recycling for toys much less appealing while maintaining the need to green to improve your ship's status. It's a win/win to me.
Peeling away the layer's of depth this zone had during the late 90's was a mistake. I understand the reasons for the changes that have come over the years - they were well-intentioned - but as I mentioned, in the end it was all for nothing because there's been practically no retention whatsoever of newer players. Virtually all the players in Chaos nowadays started playing over a decade ago. Let's all agree on that, at least.
2) What "skill set" are you referring to, spamming toys as quickly as possible? That's hardly a skill nor is it exclusive to any one group of players. Giving players all these fully greened ships full of toys and then continuing to shower them with more of those toys is why I think so many of the regulars in Chaos have such a hard time defending themselves and resort to running or just flat out die when they run out of toys. Like you said, it's hilarious how bad they are without specials. They might actually learn a thing or two if they spent a little more time flying around without them.
3) Fair play does not apply here at all. The sheer number of players exploiting the game's design flaws to escape death or give themselves an edge towards killing high bounty targets is unbelievably high, far more prevalent today than it was in the '90s. I'm not just talking about the obvious offenders like Gadianton, but even the (I thought) fair-natured players like Tommygun, for example. I understand that policing the zone isn't as easy as it once was, but there are other ways to discourage this kind of behavior and tweaking some settings, such as start bounty, is one way to curb that behavior.
There's one player who logs in and tends to play a Javelin, constantly spamming specials and immediately recycling as soon as he's done, repeating this behavior ad nauseum, throwing thors all around the zone until he gets bored and quits. There's another, Nightmare, who plays in similar fashion, except mainly for mine repping/bursting at the L12 tunnel opening. It's completely one-sided play. Should we be catering the zone around these play styles? At the risk of sounding dramatic, if the answer is yes then I want no part of the zone whatsoever.
Chaos Zone Observations - ZiGNoTZaG - 10-04-2012
2) There is some skill in timing your rocket rush and bringing it to bear. Despite what i may infer in some situations there is some skill involved. But lets just create a hypothetical situation which is not uncommon. Lets say a player (1) enters the zone and chooses a ship, greens up to get a respectable stock of items and a full stat ship. Now, another player (2) enters the zone, sees a decently high bounty and someone doing marginally well defending themselves, and fighting when the situation dictates. They (2) enter zone, have a basically well stocked ship or cycle until they have one. Now they rocket rush player (1) spamming items in attempt to take them out. Player (1) is forced to expend some items to counter. Once player (2) is out of items, the immediately cycle ships and commence the rocket rush before player (1) can recover the items lost.
So the skill set I refer to is choosing when to rocket, and reacquiring the target quickly after a cycle. Its lame to be sure, but someone who is not conditioned to playing that way, such as myself, probably couldn't pull it off without some practice. A skill set which would become largely irrelevant if you had to green some specific toys.
These problems are repairable, but I don't believe moderation is the answer. It was my experience that when you get personally involved in disciplining a player for abusive actions or words it becomes a "personal issue" whether it really is or not. "You just have something against me, and so and so does the same thing all the time"
I don't think ships need to start totally bereft of any items or status. Just like you say, a few tweaks or changes to the way ships start out would be sufficient.
Chaos Zone Observations - Bargeld - 10-12-2012
You can't please everyone. If you stay the same, you stagnate and die. If you try to change, your core players leave. You can't measure the effects of change either, so basically you just do stuff. The loudest person gets their way. Then they quiet down. Then someone else is now the loudest voice. And the cycle continues.
Chaos Zone Observations - Axe Demento - 10-13-2012
You can't please everyone. This is true. If you stay the same you stagnate. Without support of players and zone this can be true. If you try to change core players leave. This is not true it only moves the players that can't deal with change core players keep playing.
You can't measure the effects of change this is FALSE. You can watch zone population, which players had fun etc.
The loudest person only gets there way if you listen to them.
The next loudest person is the same.
Its up to those that run the zone to make the changes. They don't have to listen to anyone.
You need a leader to make the choices and the game will play.
The Game is the Game.
Each person has the choice of playing the zone or not. If you want the zone to grow play ships and invite people to play. if you want the zone to grow don't be a maroon.
If you want to be a maroon grow the zone and there will be lots of people for you to try and dominate or chase away.
I don't like losing bonus or rank. But i played anyway to support hallu. Each person that doesn't play kills the game they want to play.
I have many ideas of what i would do to increase players but its not my zone. I would have each reset winner be able to cast a vote for zone settings <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> if you want to see people play for a goal give a reward. Make a list of zone settings that are expectable Then if you win a category you get a vote. Or if you make it dependent on top 3 finishers you could stack the vote with 5votes winning a catagory 3votes for 2nd and 1 vote for 3rd. You could even give a squad a vote. Then winning a reset could allow you to do any of the chosen settings.Then you get player involvement combined with player power. You earn you vote and in turn your vote effects the zone. Think how happy i would be with a 0 bounty start. How much Sue enjoys no bonus. See how happy ZIGGY is with a new map. Some players love DZA. Nude hates flags. You could add a vote for most deaths or most kills. Even biggest bounty. The key is to make people care. Add a vote for nopublic chat for demento and see lots of maroons play just to be able to shut me up. The great thing about this system is you would also find plenty of people who would fight to allow me to speak <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />Think about how to get people to care. From that comes a good game. It is the apathy of people that kills a game. There need to force people out or the need to try and make people not have fun.
I enjoy helping anyone have fun that is willing to do the same for others.
If you like playing SS. Play ships. Cause one ship leads to 2 ships. 2 to 4 and so on
Chatting in spec doesn't lead to Playing unless you are talking about SS.
NO Flyie No Talkie!
otherwise its just a chat room and without an update SS is not facebook or twitter.
Now back to the gym <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />Soon i will be gone but i will return.
I wish everyone success in their lives and hope that you find time to play 20 ships a day <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />and when i say play a ship its killing or dying that counts.
...Axe.
Chaos Zone Observations - Nude For Satan - 10-13-2012
[quote name='Axe Demento' timestamp='1350136231' post='284619']... Nude hates flags. ...[/quote]
![[Image: godhatesflags.jpg]](http://imageshack.us/a/img826/8545/godhatesflags.jpg)
Chaos Zone Observations - Ethylene! - 10-13-2012
[quote name='Nude For Satan' timestamp='1350143052' post='284621']
[quote name='Axe Demento' timestamp='1350136231' post='284619']... Nude hates flags. ...[/quote]
[/quote]
You are the master of Photoshop
Chaos Zone Observations - Nude For Satan - 10-14-2012
Photowhat?
Chaos Zone Observations - Axe Demento - 10-15-2012
hehhe <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> as in life one can write a 20 page AXEifesto <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> but each man will take any bits about themselves <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />point in point <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />Nude hates flags <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />...Axe
Chaos Zone Observations - Sue E. Side - 10-16-2012
[quote name='Axe Demento' timestamp='1350136231' post='284619']
...if you want the zone to grow don't be a maroon...
[/quote]
Taking into account your alternative definitions for established words in the English language, that's probably the smartest thing you've ever said about the zone. The irony is that you do more to harm the growth of the zone than any of the countless people I've seen you call maroons. It's hard to tell if that's by design or an unintentional side effect of your mental condition.
Chaos Zone Observations - aesop - 10-18-2012
I'm a new player, well, I am returning after playing in the 90's. I'd like to share my observations on the zone, which I was glad to find had people in it. After playing in the only other populated zone that had wacky physics and ruin the flow of the game. I agree with Sue on several points, and want to share my observations as a new player, but I hope I don't come across as a severe critic, anyway here goes:
The map - I actually remember this map, albeit vaguely - I think it is 20% larger than necessary for the current population of players.
The obstacles - often large, dense, and lacking entry points - interrupt the flow of play, and restrict action rather than promote it, because of the small population size.
Those are the 2 big things that struck me first after returning to the game (which is so much fun!). The next thing was the bounty at start and greening, which I relearned after the recent switch (before the halloween change).
As a new player I felt that the low bounty approach had a major strength, and major weakness, both related to the population size. At low population size, 4 or fewer players, when logging in my opponents are often fully "greened" ships, while I would have low health. Due to my poor ship handling skills I was quickly killed. If I spent the time to green, and then engaged, I was still quickly killed, and had to look forward to more running and greening before I could "enjoy" another loss. This made re-learning the game more difficult, and frustrating, and I actually didn't want to play.
However, when population sizes were larger, exceeding 10 players, the low-bounty-at-start was remarkably MORE fun to play, because of team dynamics. The low-bounty and shared greens promoted teamwork, greening for teammates and team fights, and because of the low health at start I saw turrets and cloakers return--both phenomenon I hadn't seen in the high-bounty-at-start version of the zone earlier. The game was much more dynamic, fun, fast paced, and I felt everyone had more fun.
I think the high-bounty start promotes individualism, and low-bounty promotes teamwork. At least that is what I see.
To get the most out of these dynamics I'm wondering if settings can be established based on population size? Can you increase the start-bounty during low population, then reduce the bounty as more players join the zone?
I also agree that remaining the same is a bad idea, and continuing to try new things to see what people like is a good idea. I also think the new Halloween map has lots of obstacles that could be improved, but the "Halloween powerups", surprises, and artwork are a great way to promote a temporary change to the game that is very fun.
I would actually like to make a version of the chaos zone map and submit it to the server staff, if they have a copy of the original zone map, or the zone map that was on the server during the low-bounty session.
I think it is great that the game is still around--and I also think you could increase the number of players by integrating this game with facebook, in fact, you may even generate revenue by doing so, but I am not aware of who maintains the legal rights to the game. If the game was migrated to facebook you could reach a large audience very quickly, and if someone augmented the graphics to something less sci-fi (which unfortunately is why I love the game), you may also attract female players. You could make it kittens fighting on a giant ice rink, throwing small and large snowballs at each other. Same game, 2 million more players overnight.
Chaos Zone Observations - cxc - 10-18-2012
I never really played in chaos, was more alpha then warzone.
Would it be helpful if you have your zone developer change the settings so that
1. Ship change/spec/leave game all add 1 to your death count; or easier to code : entering zone as a ship (esc 1-8 ) adds 1 to death count.
2. entering safe resets your bounty
I play in hyperspace and we have the if enter safe it resets your bounty logic.
Chaos Zone Observations - Axe Demento - 10-18-2012
Sue i will reply to you. You have passed the maroon state to become an idjit <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />Thanks for inspiring the new word <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />You flying around killing the same people 10 times till they quit while tanking "i mean skimming" will cause many more to leave then me.
you are useful only in a zone with lots of players. The less players the worse your style becomes.
Not to mention you hardly play any ship since your thrashings at my hand.
Have you managed to log in since i cause you die via teamkill <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> from 2000 bounty to 0 in 1 mine ram <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />In response to cxc.
Safezone is for saving bounty not resetting it this would be a bad idea.
Ship change/spec/leave etc when not in safe would be a fine reason for a death. I always go to the safezone to leave. But my action is rare.
halloween map is fun. But .dc needs to work more often. Or make the bot turn it on 15minutes every hour.
Lots of people wishing it worked last night.
...Axe
Chaos Zone Observations - Sue E. Side - 10-18-2012
[quote name='Axe Demento' timestamp='1350574152' post='284817']
Not to mention you hardly play any ship since your thrashings at my hand.
Have you managed to log in since i cause you die via teamkill <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> from 2000 bounty to 0 in 1 mine ram <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />[/quote]
Axe, whether you've come to terms with it yet or not, one reason you draw so much disgust is exemplified right there, creating stories about particular instances that are ridiculously twisted retellings of what actually happened. You spew trash like that nonstop. Fact of the matter is you, as well as your teammate, joined my freq to avoid being shot while you regreened toys, at a time when we were the only four in the zone, effectively making it pointless to hang around. You preferred killing off the zone in favor of the chance at killing a nearly 4K bounty two man turret. That is the badass that is Axe Demento.
![[Image: axegivesup.jpg]](http://imageshack.us/a/img197/6184/axegivesup.jpg)
I only hopped in to play because SVS '98 settings were in effect. The culture of cowardice that pervades Chaos isn't my idea of fun, it was bound to turn me away sooner or later, especially with my playtime.
Chaos Zone Observations - SuG - 10-19-2012
[quote name='Sue E. Side' timestamp='1350591424' post='284827']
[quote name='Axe Demento' timestamp='1350574152' post='284817']
Not to mention you hardly play any ship since your thrashings at my hand.
Have you managed to log in since i cause you die via teamkill <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> from 2000 bounty to 0 in 1 mine ram <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />[/quote]
Axe, whether you've come to terms with it yet or not, one reason you draw so much disgust is exemplified right there, creating stories about particular instances that are ridiculously twisted retellings of what actually happened. You spew trash like that nonstop. Fact of the matter is you, as well as your teammate, joined my freq to avoid being shot while you regreened toys, at a time when we were the only four in the zone, effectively making it pointless to hang around. You preferred killing off the zone in favor of the chance at killing a nearly 4K bounty two man turret. That is the badass that is Axe Demento.
[url="http://imageshack.us/a/img197/6184/axegivesup.jpg"]
![[Image: axegivesup.jpg]](http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/197/axegivesup.jpg)
[/url]I only hopped in to play because SVS '98 settings were in effect. The culture of cowardice that pervades Chaos isn't my idea of fun, it was bound to turn me away sooner or later, especially with my playtime.
[/quote]
Hence my limited play as of late as well.
Chaos Zone Observations - Axe Demento - 10-20-2012
the game is the game.
If a player is fun. I help them have fun.
If a player is an idjit <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> i enjoying breaking them and their ship.6 man teams i proudly said and used that fact that i could join public freq 0 <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> rendering your tanking useless. And killing you with a mine ram was really quite enjoyable <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />i can also post a screen shot if you wish. Note my 800+ bounty that kept during the mine ram of awesomeness <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />...Axe
Chaos Zone Observations - Sue E. Side - 10-21-2012
[quote name='Axe Demento' timestamp='1350715230' post='284850']
the game is the game.[/quote]
Quote:i can also post a screen shot if you wish. Note my 800+ bounty that kept during the mine ram of awesomeness <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
As much as I want to like you and the time you invest in the zone, talking with you is like talking to a carved out Halloween pumpkin - the lights are on, but nobody's home.
Not only did you forfeit my bounty, you also lost out on the gunner's who decided to call it a night, quit out with yours with no kills to speak of, and left your freq mate hanging around with nothing to do as a result. The only way you could see that particular situation, and so many others you foolishly gloat about, as a win for Chaos is if you're wishing for the zone to just die already.
Chaos Zone Observations - Axe Demento - 10-22-2012
Sue you need to worry less about liking me and more about liking yourself.
you don't seem to get it <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> ramming you and breaking your team was fun.My goal had already been reached <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />I already have the most points.
and you left <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> j12 left but i remained <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />and you know what more people arrived and the killing continued without you.
Just enjoyed fighting j12 again i'm not here for you. I"m here for myself and anyone who want to help me have fun.
I return that service <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />I have plenty of things that could reshape this zone to do better. But thats up to Hallu its his zone. He does a fine job. But to move forward changes need to be made.
But if you want chaos to do well play ships.
Don't worry about Axe Demento <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />As far as the inside of a pumpkin even if you hollow it out. something remains.
Dwell on your your insides and maybe you can reshape your outer world.
now its time for me to mention!
NO FLYIE No Forum RESPONSEY <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />If i see you fly a ship I'll respond to you. Otherwise no more for you.
Have fun!
...Axe
and to all the players that play and have fun
....Choas State of MINED <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />