4v4 ship settings - Season 36

[Caerbannog]

The settings have been the same for a while now. (4 seasons or so). Let me know if you find a mistake or I forgot to list something important. Javelin was changed for Season 34.

Universal settings:

Max energy: 1700

Recharge rate: 1150 per 10 seconds so 115 a second.

Bullet damage: 212, fixed.

Shrap damage, active: 190, 90% of 212 rounded down

Shrap damage, inactive: 5, doubled when calculated, no one knows why, so 10.

Direct bomb damage: 750 - add the shrap for all but weasel, 8*10 = 830

For the nerds out there: Direct emp = 750 (or close) and 4 seconds of loss of charge, 750+4*115 = 1210 damage

Repel speed: 3600

Repel range: 512 pixels

Brick time: 20 seconds

Brick span: 15 tiles

Bullet speed: 2000

Bomb speed: 2005

Rocket duration: 10 seconds

Rocket speed: 4000

Rocket thrust: 25

Turret limit: 1

Bullet cost: 60

Bomb cost: 350

Mine cost: 550

X-Radar cost: 100 per 10 seconds

Multi angle: 500 in very weird subspace units. (111 = 1 degree, 1000 = 1 ship-rotation-point)

Multi fire delay: 50 hundreths of a second.

Bomb delay: 150

Bullet alive time: 550 hundreths of a second so 5.5 seconds

Bomb alive time: 6000 so 1 minute.


Maximum Mines: 1 per player, 5 per team. (yeah, fancy that)

( Maximum Bursts: 3)

Maximum Repels: 2

Maximum Decoy: 2

Maximum Bricks: 1

Maximum Thors: 1

Maximum Rockets: 3

Maximum Portals: 2

Almost universal:

Anti-warp cost: 50 for everything but Shark and Lancaster. 150 for Sharks, 0 for Lancasters.

Initial bricks: 0 for everything but Leviathan. 1 for Leviathans.

Multi bullet cost: 105 for everything but Terrier. 90 for Terrier.

Maximum speed: 3250 for everything but Javelin.

Javelin speeds: 3500 normal, 3750 with afterburner.

Afterburner cost: 0 for everything but Javelin, 700/10 seconds for Javelin.

Stealth energy: 333 for everything but Spider, 150 for Spider.

Shrapnel: 8 for everything but Weasel. Weasel has none.

Bullet fire delay: 24 hundreths of a second for everything but Shark. 18 for Shark.

Ship specifics - Warbird:

Thrust: 19

Rotation: 290 - 400 would be full 360 degrees in one second.

Guns: 3

Bombs: 2

Ship specifics - Javelin (-> S33):

Thrust: 18

Rotation: 260

Speed: 3550

Guns: 3

Bombs:2

 

(old) Ship specifics - Javelin (-> S33):

Thrust: 17 without Afterburner, 19 with Afterburner.

Rotation: 260

Speed: 3500 without Afterburner, 3750 with Afterburner.

Guns: 3

Bombs: 2

Ship specifics - Spider:

Thrust: 18

Rotation: 260

Cloak cost: 200

Guns: 3

Bombs: 2

Minesee on radar.

Ship specifics - Leviathan:

Thrust: 18

Rotation: 260

Guns: 3

Bombs: 3

Bombsee on radar up to level 4, thors are invisible.

Spawns with a brick.

Ship specifics - Terrier:

Thrust: 18

Rotation: 260

Multi cost: 90

Guns: 3 - dual barrel

Bombs: 2

Ship specifics - Weasel:

Thrust: 18

Rotation: 250

Guns: 3

Bombs: 2 - EMP

Minesee on radar.

No delay on firing bullets or repel after firing a bomb.

Ship specifics - Lancaster:

Thrust: 18

Rotation: 270

Guns: 3

Anti-warp cost: 0

Bombs: 2 - Bouncing, 2 bounces.

Bombsee on radar up to level 4, thors are invisible.

Ship specifics - Shark:

Thrust: 18

Rotation: 260

Bullet fire rate: 18

Anti-warp cost: 150

Guns: 3

Bombs: 2


EDIT: Added bomb and bullet alive times from the top of my head since Arctos asked about them. I'll doublecheck them eventually..

[Three]

Changes that should be considered for Pro League 4v4 in my opinion:



Under Universal Settings:



These are the current settings for items:



( Maximum Bursts: 3)

Maximum Repels: 2

Maximum Decoy: 2

Maximum Bricks: 1

Maximum Thors: 1

Maximum Rockets: 3

Maximum Portals: 2



I assume the likelihood of greening a repel or burst is impossible. Starting item count is fine for each ship.



The issue is if I kill someone and the green they drop is a thor and I have 1 thor already, then I don't get the benefit of that green assuming I pick it up. At times picking up said green is unavoidable. Max Thors, Rockets, Bricks, Portals, and Decoys should not be limited. While it's a given people with a burnt ship on your team should have priority to greens that drop, one shouldn't be essentially penalized because they still have items. Again, starting item counts are fine but if I get an extra thor, rocket, whatever, that should be a benefit as it's a prize I earned for getting the green and kill/assist.



Ship Settings:



Javelin:



Should not have afterburner, increase thrust to 18 from 17. Max speed should be whatever is considered a fair setting and has been used in the past.



Warbird:



Should not have multifire. Already the superior ship. Shouldn't have the ability to press/contain/hunt down (box in) a ship with multi. This imbalance is more pronounced against ships of lesser rotation/thrust. The warbird already asserts its presence by being the most agile ship. Ship position in 4v4 is everything. Whether or not people take advantage of multifire is irrelevant in my opinion - its ungodly good in the positioning battle as is without multi.



Weasel:



Should be a delay between firing a bullet and then a bomb. Shouldn't be able to fire a continuous stream bullet bullet bullet bomb bullet bullet bullet. The delay between firing a bomb then bullets should stay the same. There should be a break (-) when firing say bullet bullet (-) bomb. Unsure how hard this is to change.



three

[Caerbannog]

Initial toys is minimum, maximum is maximum. If max thor count is 2, you might get a thor among the 600 greens you are given to guarantee you get multi-bullets, bouncing bullets and prox.

Ship stats as in speed, rotation, etc.



I also see a positive thing in item levels though. Like you said, if you never used a rocket, you cannot be rewarded with a fourth one so you can run away more.



Removing multi from WB... I believe we discussed and/or polled it before I raised the multi bullet cost. I'd be all for no multi on WBs since it just slows the game down.

Javelin has never had a "fair setting" speed, it's always been too fast or too slow. We could try adjusting it, then rolling it back mid-season if league becomes a running zone mockery.



Weasel change, sadly, cannot be done. The EMP property adds the zero delay IIRC. Self-Emp is also unavailable. There are things that could be done to make weasel less "lame", most of which still include messing with one of the following: bomb level, gun level, emp damage percent, inactive vs. active shrap damage, seeing as how weasel spawns none.



We can use this thread to discuss changes. I know Arctos had a bunch of ideas in the past, lost somewhere on the old forums. Some were impossible, the others are something we could toy around with if we have a decent off-season at least.



Also if anyone knows of a zone with the changes I said are impossible, let me know <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[Three]

I knocked the idea around of giving the Weasel level 2 (yellow) bullets with a good group of people. Unsure of what the damage rate of a yellow bullet is vs. the static 212 of level 3 bullets. Giving it red bombs would be a huge mistake.



We should try out Javelin speed rates.



Removing multifire from the Warbird in the off season and trying out these settings changes sounds like a great idea. Can we please not bring back stupid 20 thrust sharks? That was an awful idea. Would it be possible to make it so even if a WB collected a multifire green that they would still not get it? Probably a slim chance they get that green already anyway but just curious.



Thanks for responding.

[Caerbannog]

[quote name='Three' timestamp='1351100491' post='284938']

I knocked the idea around of giving the Weasel level 2 (yellow) bullets with a good group of people. Unsure of what the damage rate of a yellow bullet is vs. the static 212 of level 3 bullets. Giving it red bombs would be a huge mistake.



We should try out Javelin speed rates.



Removing multifire from the Warbird in the off season and trying out these settings changes sounds like a great idea. Can we please not bring back stupid 20 thrust sharks? That was an awful idea. Would it be possible to make it so even if a WB collected a multifire green that they would still not get it? Probably a slim chance they get that green already anyway but just curious.



Thanks for responding.

[/quote]



Level whatever bullets....

The settings have a base damage for level 1, then one value for both increments.

As of right now, I think it's set to 212 base for level 1 guns and +0 damage when you green to level 2, and another +0 for level 3.

The damage of X level bullets will be the same for all ships. The fire rates and cost can be adjusted per ship.



We could play around with this, but getting it right is/would be super duper hard, pracs and off-season are horrible for ship setting testing, since they flow nothing like a real game. The end result is that either a season might be "ruined" like the seasons with super spray and pray terriers and 20 thrust sharks making the games stupid.

The other thing I've at least paid attention to when not implementing suggestions that look good is the "SVS" tradition we carry... we could make the shipset a whole lot more interesting, it's not hard, but the SVS part would take a hit.



As for Javelin speeds it always comes down to: Set it at slightly more than wb -> you still can't catch people if they ever use their superior thrust around a corner. Set it a lot higher -> You will never catch a running javelin. In theory the afterburner helps combat this, but in the real spaceworld, no one (except for rage and 9-volt?) really used it in a game more than once. But sure, we can play around with it.



Removing multibullet from a specific ship can be done by just cheating the settings. If you set the cost of firing multi higher than the max energy on a ship, it just won't fire. This is an issue if you accidentally toggle it, though. I think it might also have been possible to just make multibullet perfectly mimic single bullets, so you'd only fire singles whether it's toggled or not (trench wars does this on their wb iirc).

Oh, and when I polled this, I personally wanted to see it gone from weasel as well (and give it rotation, iirc) because a multi+emp insant combo is pretty insane damage.



There are of course the less drastic, more universal, alternatives of

1) Make multi-bullets cost even more than I previously did "Multi bullet cost: 105 for everything but Terrier. 90 for Terrier." 90 used to be the standard for all ships.

2) Increase multi-bullet fire delay, so they cannot be as easily laid down in a 3000 damage carpet within a few seconds.





People please, post your suggestions here. We might want to/have to try all the changes at once, not one change a weekend or whatever for off-season.

[Three]

So you could have base level one bullets do so much damage, then they increase in damage by an amount you set... right? In old SVS zones red bullets didn't do the same amount of damage blue ones did. Change base level from 212 to something much lower, find a desired amount of damage total per bullet for level 2, adjust that increment, and then add whatever difference there needs to be added for level 3 so level 3 damage stays at 212.



Can ship settings be changed in just one arena? Create a 4v4 test arena where settings can be tested in a game situation with two teams comprised of veterans. It's a given using random practices to try out ship settings isn't the best way.



Seasons have been ruined by a single person (Underlord) dictating ship setting changes by himself. He didn't even play pro league at the time when he instituted 20 thrust sharks and the spray and pray terriers.



A small group of elite players voting on matters would be much more adequate. Multiple active players who have many years of league experience should contribute and help decide. A Pro League council with people that are active and play on the highest level would be more constructive and balanced than what has been done in the past. You would have multiple viewpoints. Peoples "styles" may be different and they may see things in another way. Their concerns would be voiced and other "angles" would be seen.



I think removing multifire off of less agile ships or increasing the fire delay is a bad idea. We aren't trying to make ships with lesser rotation and thrust weaker. Those ships can and should be using multifire to cover ground so Warbird's can't get to the flanks so easily. Increasing cost across all levels and removing multi all together from the Warbird in my opinion would be a smart change to test.



What was the Javelin speed/rotation/afterburner around season 6? Those are the settings we should look into for the Javelin. Players like CookieM were able to hit and finish off good Warbird's back then. The Warbird settings were the same back then as they are today. I understand resolution plays into the effectiveness of the Javelin, but I feel like those settings were better for the Javelin. Maybe they weren't, but todays Javelin isn't up to snuff and needs to be looked at.

[Caerbannog]

[quote name='Three' timestamp='1351188457' post='284970']

So you could have base level one bullets do so much damage, then they increase in damage by an amount you set... right? In old SVS zones red bullets didn't do the same amount of damage blue ones did. Change base level from 212 to something much lower, find a desired amount of damage total per bullet for level 2, adjust that increment, and then add whatever difference there needs to be added for level 3 so level 3 damage stays at 212.

[/quote]



Yeah, as I was trying to say. You get to set level 1 bullet damage, which in SVS was about 90, then a +120 per level up to about 350 max damage per level three bullet.

The bullet levels themselves factored into the random range as well, 212 was derived from the average damage of a SVS level three I believe.



Anyways we could set it to something like base 148 and then 32 per level making it 180 for level 2 and the usual 212 for level 3. The numbers will be hard to get right here too, the costs would probably have to be the same.. and then there's the whole level 2 multibullet business. Either way, it's adjustable.



[quote name='Three' timestamp='1351188457' post='284970']

Can ship settings be changed in just one arena? Create a 4v4 test arena where settings can be tested in a game situation with two teams comprised of veterans. It's a given using random practices to try out ship settings isn't the best way.



Seasons have been ruined by a single person (Underlord) dictating ship setting changes by himself. He didn't even play pro league at the time when he instituted 20 thrust sharks and the spray and pray terriers.



A small group of elite players voting on matters would be much more adequate. Multiple active players who have many years of league experience should contribute and help decide. A Pro League council with people that are active and play on the highest level would be more constructive and balanced than what has been done in the past. You would have multiple viewpoints. Peoples "styles" may be different and they may see things in another way. Their concerns would be voiced and other "angles" would be seen.

[/quote]



Yes, but like with the maps and settings previously, nothing forces people to play there. Compiling such a group is harder than it sounds. And as far as I can tell, Underlord never asked anyone if terrier, leviathan, lancaster, spider or shark needed "fixing". He just made some rather insane changes. When I toned them back down it was mostly from the overwhelming feedback from just about everyone. StarFire Elite's players were fans of the 20 thrust shark at the time, everyone else thought it sucked. X-radar cost vs. Free cloak was also discussed many times, as the game slowing spider was becoming a must have standard. Leviathans and Lancasters, which were changed less, have still not been abused as hard as they could still be. Thank you for this <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



I've tried to get a captains' council going a few times, no one ever really seems to care. The experts would have to be distributed over several squads, and if they change squads, should be replaced. Otherwise it'll just generally feel rotten. (I happen to know at least one person who finds it dubious for the league OP to be on the team that has won the league a few times... you people...)



[quote name='Three' timestamp='1351188457' post='284970']

I think removing multifire off of less agile ships or increasing the fire delay is a bad idea. We aren't trying to make ships with lesser rotation and thrust weaker. Those ships can and should be using multifire to cover ground so Warbird's can't get to the flanks so easily. Increasing cost across all levels and removing multi all together from the Warbird in my opinion would be a smart change to test.



What was the Javelin speed/rotation/afterburner around season 6? Those are the settings we should look into for the Javelin. Players like CookieM were able to hit and finish off good Warbird's back then. The Warbird settings were the same back then as they are today. I understand resolution plays into the effectiveness of the Javelin, but I feel like those settings were better for the Javelin. Maybe they weren't, but todays Javelin isn't up to snuff and needs to be looked at.

[/quote]



Well, yes. If all multibullets are weakened then the other abilities of the ships shine. Terrier's bullets mystically become a lot better, while the less agile levi and lanc can lob bombs without having to worry about a gazillion multis. But removing it from only the wb would naturally weaken WB in comparison (and possibly make people abuse lancasters).



I probably don't have S6 settings anywhere, nor are they archived anywhere. But they might be close to the "SVS-98" chaos settings. I don't actually have specific seasons' settings saved and documented anywhere.

[baldorin]

Pretty sure these are season 6 settings.

[Three]

Caer - all sounds good and can be worked out. I think a few players need to be gathered for the council and changes tested. Perhaps tested during the season in a 4v4 test arena. Whatever works and is easiest for you.



All good stuff on the multifire and weasel changes.



Javelin perhaps should stay with the 17 thrust, no afterburner, and use season 6 settings (to test).



Let me know how I can help.



three

[Caerbannog]

Whatever settings Baldorin just posted here are whack. Those are ... SVSish, except with the supershark and the lanc has already been made into a supership.

3750 jav speed is pretty intense, and I don't think there's a need to reduce every ship's rotation further.



I could complile a settings file using something like

1. no multi wb - by setting cost to 1701, setting the angle to 0 and speed to mimic single bullets would break gun accuracy calculations (multi bullets are not factored in at all)

2. 3650 17thrust no afterburner jav

3. Level 2 annoying sound bullet weasel with approximately 85% bullet damage compard to level 3.

4. Other settings the same



and then put it up somewhere after the round & send everyone there. It's all getting rather un-SVSy if we do this, though.

[Three]

[quote name='Caerbannog' timestamp='1351295787' post='284997']

Whatever settings Baldorin just posted here are whack. Those are ... SVSish, except with the supershark and the lanc has already been made into a supership.

3750 jav speed is pretty intense, and I don't think there's a need to reduce every ship's rotation further.



I could complile a settings file using something like

1. no multi wb - by setting cost to 1701, setting the angle to 0 and speed to mimic single bullets would break gun accuracy calculations (multi bullets are not factored in at all)

2. 3650 17thrust no afterburner jav

3. Level 2 annoying sound bullet weasel with approximately 85% bullet damage compard to level 3.

4. Other settings the same



and then put it up somewhere after the round & send everyone there. It's all getting rather un-SVSy if we do this, though.

[/quote]



I agree that those settings are a little off compared to today's. The only reason I wanted to see season 6 settings was to see the Javelin's attributes. I don't want to reduce every ship's rotation further.... I'm sorry if you were given that impression. When I said use season 6 settings I was only referring to the Javelin.



1. Sounds good.

2. Sounds good.

3. If there is a better way to balance the Weasel then I'm all for it, or leave it how it is in Pro now.

4. Sounds good.



I'm unsure how this is not "SVS" like. These are my thoughts on the state of the league. Some ships have an advantage - the entire idea of other ships is to counter another. These proposed changes were (in my opinion) the most obvious and least objectionable changes that can be tested and agreed upon or refuted easily.

[Caerbannog]

Yeah I got you were after S6 Jav settings only, but even just those jav settings would lower its rotation, since everything was brought closer to the wb at some point.



The idea of the ships being there to counter each other is probably incorrect. Or the original designers weren't very good at their job. The ships are all too close to the same, with only a simple "I prefer larger bomb prox to dual barrel guns" choice.



Btw just to be clear, when you're trying to balance the weasel... where do you think the imbalance currently is? And if we lower its burst damage output, do we need to give it regular rotation or something else to not just be nerfed below every other ship, unless angled in 1v1 on an already weakened target.

[Three]

[quote name='Caerbannog' timestamp='1351326147' post='285013']

Yeah I got you were after S6 Jav settings only, but even just those jav settings would lower its rotation, since everything was brought closer to the wb at some point.



The idea of the ships being there to counter each other is probably incorrect. Or the original designers weren't very good at their job. The ships are all too close to the same, with only a simple "I prefer larger bomb prox to dual barrel guns" choice.



Btw just to be clear, when you're trying to balance the weasel... where do you think the imbalance currently is? And if we lower its burst damage output, do we need to give it regular rotation or something else to not just be nerfed below every other ship, unless angled in 1v1 on an already weakened target.

[/quote]



Ok so let's try out 17 thrust, 260 rotation, 3650 max speed no afterburner for Javelin.



Perhaps - can be debated either way and varies with play style/strategy (for example ship combinations and how they compliment one another in a league match). I really don't want to debate that at this time.



If you and others think the Weasel is just fine let's leave it how it is. Giving it more rotation (if it had yellow bullets) wouldn't be fair.

[Caerbannog]

The settings were in, are back to "normal" now.



Leave comments here.

I mostly only saw negative comments, some people wouldn't mind weasels not having l3 but... yeah.

[Three]

Whatever the most balanced settings are is what I want. I'm disappointed it didn't turn out well yesterday but I don't think you helped.



If you want positive feedback and constructive forward thinking ideas, condemning settings changes in game (especially when you're the sysop of the league) that have thought behind them before they are even tested isn't going to yield positive results.



As a leader and the CEO if you will of a league, your attitude and racist comments aren't conducive to league growth or positive change. Your attitude and actions should be exemplary, people should look up to you, not think the sysop of the league just came back from a clan rally. The culture and environment you and the current staff have created and harbor is disgusting and an embarrassment to this game and gaming as a whole. A little trash talk is always fun, gd, ez, etc. Not what you do.



You are no leader. I quake for the future of this league.

[Caerbannog]

[quote name='Three' timestamp='1351530211' post='285040']

Whatever the most balanced settings are is what I want

[/quote]



You had me at "I want".



I want the ship settings that are deemed the "best" by the actual player base. Not you, baldorin and j00n.



j00n said you're compiling a list of why I'm a bad league op. Was the above list all of that? Because



1) I still don't feel like this position of e-Power is something that grants me any special a) immunity and <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' /> restritctions to what I can do as a player. People will or will not look up to me out of their free will, based on their own mind. I don't really care much either way. I do hope they can distinguish between me, and "league op" though.

I've made fair calls all the way and I don't intend to stop.



2) Don't get all butthurt about people not jumping all over these settings. No change is easy, and these weren't the all-hail-three settings. Nothing in them weren't previously discussed. People were just unhappy with the settings all over the place before my "We all agree these don't help?" spam, which of course is a bit leading. But people need to be provoked, one way or the other. I just did it using the way _I_ feel about the settings, instead of making myself look like an ass with "These are the best settings ever, don't you think?"



3) And no, I am no leader. Nor am I trying to be. I just schedule games.



4) It would be helpful if people post their comments on the settings here.



I know you're totally keen on running the show, but this flaky My-way-or-the-highway attitude and you starting/dissolving multiple squads doesn't really help your cause in my eye. If I have my say in it, I won't let the league ever be run by someone I think can flake out at any moment. I suggest you collect enough cash to make 9-Volt do it. He ran RZJPL before and only has beef with develop <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blum.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':p' />



P.S. I wish the east coast all the best surviving Sandy or whatever.

[Three]

[quote name='Caerbannog' timestamp='1351533544' post='285041']

[quote name='Three' timestamp='1351530211' post='285040']

Whatever the most balanced settings are is what I want

[/quote]



You had me at "I want".



I want the ship settings that are deemed the "best" by the actual player base. Not you, baldorin and j00n.



j00n said you're compiling a list of why I'm a bad league op. Was the above list all of that? Because



1) I still don't feel like this position of e-Power is something that grants me any special a) immunity and <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' /> restritctions to what I can do as a player. People will or will not look up to me out of their free will, based on their own mind. I don't really care much either way. I do hope they can distinguish between me, and "league op" though.

I've made fair calls all the way and I don't intend to stop.



2) Don't get all butthurt about people not jumping all over these settings. No change is easy, and these weren't the all-hail-three settings. Nothing in them weren't previously discussed. People were just unhappy with the settings all over the place before my "We all agree these don't help?" spam, which of course is a bit leading. But people need to be provoked, one way or the other. I just did it using the way _I_ feel about the settings, instead of making myself look like an ass with "These are the best settings ever, don't you think?"



3) And no, I am no leader. Nor am I trying to be. I just schedule games.



4) It would be helpful if people post their comments on the settings here.



I know you're totally keen on running the show, but this flaky My-way-or-the-highway attitude and you starting/dissolving multiple squads doesn't really help your cause in my eye. If I have my say in it, I won't let the league ever be run by someone I think can flake out at any moment. I suggest you collect enough cash to make 9-Volt do it. He ran RZJPL before and only has beef with develop <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blum.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':p' />



P.S. I wish the east coast all the best surviving Sandy or whatever.

[/quote]



How did you miss the point or do you just choose to be dense?



There was no secret objective to what I and what every player playing in a league wants, fair settings. So yes I want fair settings. Those should be dictated by the player base, true enough. When you say let’s try shitty settings, that influences players, as you are the league sysop (this is one of the many issues). I’m not upset about people not liking the settings, I’m unhappy that the person running the league won’t even give them a fair shake. The proposed settings were not meant to serve some greater all hail three purpose as I was weakening the very ship I use…



I’m not keen on running anything. I’ll say it again, dumbass, I want a SS Pro Council. I don’t want to be the sysop. There needs to be a group of elite players who aren’t racist pricks deciding issues. Having a person at the top making decisions hasn’t worked out. Underlord, you. We need a group of players who can promote the zone and the league, not someone throwing up N-bombs and acting like a child when he dies out. You really think people still lag in 2012? You’re part of the problem dude. Your actions as the league head don’t reflect well on the league and the zones player base. Get that through your head.



I created a lot of squads, all mostly of the same core people with others coming and going. What can I say squads live and die every season. I would venture a guess that the majority of players on the squads I captained all had a great time, and all but maybe one made the post season. I left title squads after winning to play with friends and create new teams to compete, not many can say the same. I guess thanks for bringing that up?



This game could be run on a computer built in the year 2000. Cash isn’t an issue. People have issues giving money to those they don’t know.



I’m sure you’re wishing for ALL the people on the east coast to be safe. Or perhaps just those with a certain tone to their skin. Fuck you racist.

[Caerbannog]

"You really think people still lag in 2012?"



Yes. I do. For proof I just type ?lag.



"This game could be run on a computer built in the year 2000. Cash isn’t an issue. People have issues giving money to those they don’t know.



I’m sure you’re wishing for ALL the people on the east coast to be safe. Or perhaps just those with a certain tone to their skin. Fuck you racist."



Money is an issue. The game can run on a pre-2000 rig. The server and bots might not be able to do this. Donations to pay the server bill are not very reliable or fun for the person receiving money from random sources when paypal or whatever catches up. I wouldn't recommend it.



And yes, I do wish all of the east coast luck with the hurricane or hybrid storm or whatever it is now. It actually affects things outside spaceships as well. Good job being an ignorant prick <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



Plus with all the material j00n provided for the harrasment cases against him, and the bans he had for it, I don't think your racism claims have much weight. Sorry.

---------



Anyways related to the thread, "Pro Council" or Captains' council, like I said, would be nice. The captains just show no interest at all, or don't want to change anything. I won't run around wasting everyone's time trying to change something no one wants changed. This thread is still awaiting feedback from ANYONE, although the forums themselves are pretty well hidden.



Here's one for you three, taken from the Chaos staff forum:

Mr. B-Hole> j00n sits in here and says he wishes poeples children would die in real life....its just dispicable



which j00n confesses to, R defends him, etc. They don't seem to have a problem with language, unless they want to act professionally butthurt.

[j00n]

For obvious reasons I have to come and rebuttal your pathetic distorted accusations against me in an attempt to deflect the negative attention from your ignorant self.



1."Plus with all the material j00n provided for the harrasment cases against him, and the bans he had for it, I don't think your racism claims have much weight. Sorry."



First off I appreciate you bringing this to everyone's attention. I would like to begin with correcting your claim which is a logically flawed statement in itself. There is no logical correlation between --> You being a league operator and conducting yourself in an ignorant racist manner as well as degrading individuals with foul profane language AND -----> stating this carries no weight because 1 player in a game (me) has harassed someone and gotten banned in the past. (*note) The former nor the latter have any relation which each other. It involved different individuals.



All this proves is that you are agreeing that harassment is wrong and is a bannable offense. Is this zone so corrupt that staff members are allowed to harass and degrade players by use of racism and profanity? You agree that other players who have harassed and used profanity were banned, but yet you state, that because other players have done these things you somehow have immunity against them? It's a wonder why this games dying...



2. "Mr. B-Hole> j00n sits in here and says he wishes poeples children would die in real life....its just dispicable"



I am actually embarrassed for you that this is the best thing you could come up with. Especially since I don't know what a "poeples" is or what "dispicable" means. IF this statement were accurate it still carries NO justification for you as a league operator to display yourself in an ignorant, fascist, de-meaning manner. You are clearly deflecting here by manufacturing delusions that because a player by the name of Mr. B-hole says a statement about someone else it MUST be true. You are making an even Bigger mistake that by assuming if it were true this statement warrants all actions you have and are not held personally accountable. The bottom line is; your claims as well as this statement are exclusively erroneous and validate how cretinous you truly are. Is this really a way staff members conduct investigations and defend themselves against foul play? By quoting random banter in pub that has no relevance to what's truly going on....



3. "which j00n confesses to, R defends him, etc. They don't seem to have a problem with language, unless they want to act professionally butthurt."



This statement is completely false. The facts are; I started playing again 3 months ago from an 8 year break, I had altercations with Axe Demento in the beginning, as a result I was reprimanded by staff and received a 1 day ban. For the record I never said nor wanted his child to die. Hallu and passplay spoke to me about the rules and the bantering stopped. However from what I understand YOU didn't start playing 3 months ago, You aren't just a player but the owner and operator of 4v4 league, and You should have absolutely NO excuses. Most importantly, how does this relate to what three's concerns were about or your integrity as a league operator??



4v4 league is a place of great historical significance in this wonderful game we spend so much time in and It is obvious that many of us have endured a predominate amount of disrespect from you. It is distressing that under the topic "4v4 Ship Settings" in response to Three's post you ran out of excuses and felt the need to try and degrade me with inaccurate logically flawed statements that as anyone can see ultimately made you look like a stooge. Even an evasive charlatan as yourself leaves a trail. When I started playing subspace again and learned that 4v4 league was still alive I was ecstatic with joy. I reunited with some old ss buddies and had many nostalgic conversations about the "good ole days". We had talks of why the league has declined and things we could do to make it better. We called up old vets and discussed bringing back an old squad RaDaR for next session to add to population growth. As the season progressed we realized this was impossible to do with a person like you, Caerbannog, in power.



You say "it would be nice" to create a Captains council where captains of each squad have a say in how league is run. However, you note that, "captains show no interest at all or don't want to change anything". The issue isn't with squads not showing interest. People don't spend time away from their family/friends/real world to play every week and have no voice. The better question to ask yourself is why aren't captains of teams wanting to be a part of a council where they can influence the very league they play? I think it's a fact that many people in pro think you ignore and disregard what they have to say. This includes your very own staff. It is a fact that when you do get some suggestions such as changing settings you make a total mockery of the situation and humiliate and disrespect all parties involved (see screenshot below). I think it's a fact you ignore the rules and bend them as you please. This includes dictating inconsistent roster changes as well as the above issues with harassment, ignorance, and bigotry. How many times do I and others have to hear or experience “I gave many suggestions over the course of years but it fell on deaf ears”. I think it's a fact that your totalitarian-esque subjectivism reinforces to players that this is NOT a professionally run league and those of us that have good ideas and want to contribute are completely discouraged in doing so. What I am trying to say is that of course it is of no surprise but to you that none of the squad captains want anything to do with YOU or your council as you stated.



Since, you decided to play the quote game which was a complete SCOPE shift to the real issues three was concerned with, I have screenshots of the most recent anecdotes from our League Operator.







Thank you league operator for pointing out that because I got lagged into spec during a practice I should be called a nigger followed with completely being degraded and humiliated.



Below is a message that Caerbannog sent to everyone in pro league on Sunday after matches. Caerbannog tells the public to come test the "bad changes" that the 4v4 community had spent many hours discussing and Three spent the time to request on forums. It goes without saying that discrediting something before anyone has had a chance to see it for themselves sabotages and undermines the test preemptively. As you can see, once again, it is of NO surprise to anyone but you that none of the squad captains want anything to do with YOU or your council as you stated.







This isn't about what I did or said. This isn't about the subspace community showing "no interest or caring". This is about you as owner and league operator of a zone we dedicate time and energy to. For you to own up to your mistakes, not just hear but listen to what the players are telling you, and to not perverse from the truth.

[Caerbannog]

I am listening to what the community is saying. Most of them said the changes are bad.

The message above includes the conclusions from myself and Mog, we tested the ships before they went "public".



The other screenshot is from a prac, where develop was in a 2v1 situation and I was just keeping you busy so he could duel Street Fighter. We almost won <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



In any case, unless you are in fact black, stop acting butthurt. Thanks. If you are, sorry about the comment, I could see why you might be upset.



Now let me go find more quotes.



Also bringing back RaDaR is in no way impossible with me in charge, unless you choose not to. And then there is the case of... could you even bring it back regardless?

As for me not listening to my own staff? Okay. I suppose you have more facts than we have on the staff chats.



EDIT, more of j00n's logical statements while just going apeshit with R in pub:

j00n> i hope that guy dies in real life

j00n> and since when cant i express my opinions in pub?

j00n> i think you forget one thing

j00n> you see that little ship when you press esc 7

j00n> the lanc

j00n> i designed that ship



Also you go on to suggest that Hallu is running the zone in an irrelevant era of SS, yet attempt to glorify 4v4 in your post above. You suggest harrasment is what ?ignore is there for, etc.

Your actions have no logic.



In any case, I'm sure all of this is related to the ship settings.