13 Hour Safe Time ABUSE

[Ninespike]

Deleted.

[Nude For Satan]

Personally I am not a fan of the long safe timer. I'm probably not as adverse to it as Ninespike is, but I will admit that I don't like it. I'll try to break down all my thoughts on it. As I'm clearly the most skilled pilot in all of Subspace, my opinion should carry the most weight

 

The timer has been changed to, what? 12 hours? 13 hours? It used to be 15 minutes? I was always used to Alpha's half hour safe timer. 15 mins and 30 mins are kind of the same, not much difference between them, the purposes of their duratin are fairly comparable.

 

What was (apparently) the original purpose of a safe zone timer of 15/20 mins?

A pee, a crap, a courier delivery, a phone call. Maybe just a PM convo with another player to plug a squad or talk about what some player was seen doing, etc. Basically for when you need a time out but expect to hopefully resume before too long.

 

Safe zones are also used to safely change freqs, bonus those boosters and rabbits. Stuff like that.

 

What is the argument FOR longer safe timers?

Seems the main point is that if someone has played for a while, got themselves a good bounty, and wants not to lose it, but has to go out for dinner/movie. You can stay in safe and keep your ship (spikes notwithstanding).

Pros :

- Keep your bounty if you're on a roll.

- Looks like a higher population in play (at first glance) - hopefully attracting more players.

- A player might hang around seeing if the guy in safe come out of afk soon, long enough for a third player to arrive and voila we have 2+ active players that might have missed each other.

- We're all older, our afks are more sudden, longer and more important. We don't have a known time to play up til mum calls you for dinner at 6pm. We have an unknown time to play before the sound of our children crying from another room calls us away. Longer afks, maybe even an hour or 90 minutes, I feel, are definitely indicated.

 

Cons :

- Antiwarp on plays havoc for fifteen minutes, let alone 13 hours! Bit unfair. Hallu: you had an awesome coding addition auto-turning off people's AW after a few minutes in safe. It seems to have dropped off the system. Can it be reintroduced?

- This player is not playing. Another player waiting for them to exit safe could understandably be pretty annoyed after sitting around a long time in hope.A regular is not going to be confused, but a newer player (eg someone from EG or TW just checking CZ out) is gonna go back home with a very disparaging assessment to share.

- It feels like a lie to new(ish) players (as above). I have seen players from other zones speak up obviously feeling ripped off. It looks like there's an active population here when four players are out of spec, then you see they're all in safe. I've seen instances of "How does this shitty zone get away with cheating the stats this way, those ships could be bots for all I know". Of course it's NOT actually cheating the stats, but appearances always count for something.  (It must be said that the introductory bot PM describing players in zone and players in safe IS a good idea that allays some of this).

- Safed players clog public freqs. The counter-argument is: change freqs. "But sometimes three freqs have long-term safed players." "well, change to another one." "What, so I change to freq 11? So when new players enter I can be guaranteed not to receive any of them onto my team by default?" Also, *new* players need to be taught the pewpew, not the freqchangewhenplayersareinsafepew. They're not going to readily get the concept. They're going to go back to their own zone. Or to porn. Also, sometimes you've jumped in, played, done well, gone 5-0, but now you're low in items and could do with assistance as people start to focus on your bounty. //you there? //??? //????????? ... you've done your dash before finding out that the freq is a TRAP, If you're any good, you're now a bounty farm. There are some seriously emphatic rivalries in CZ (and subspace), you don't want to be caught out like this when your arch-nemesis is starting to challenge you.

 

Overall, I don't like it.

 

It's good that AW is or used to be turned off automatically after a timer.

It's good that streaks are ended if you're there too long.

It's good that the enter-zone green text warns you if players are in safe.

But I don't think this is enough to clear the way for such long safety time.

 

That's just my 2c, all I can think of right now. I'm sure there's many more aspects.

[Plutorus]

Nude, awesome post. This is the first collected, substantial list of pro's and con's for the timer that I've seen in a long time. And while I support the longer timer, for the reason I listed below, you've definitely swayed me a bit towards your position. 

 

For me, the over-arching question is (as you alluded to) "Are we experiencing more players/activity due to this change, or less?" If it were statistically detrimental, and players/activity declined since its implementation, I'd also want to revert the timer back to a shorter frame. If it were damaging overall population, it would have been long gone. More likely quite the opposite.

 

Also, previous discussion + poll: http://www.subspace.co/topic/26286-safe-zone-time-opinions/

 

-Plut

[Axe Demento]

I never waste time

so here is a post.  13 hour safe is not about bounty it is about having a ship.  Spec is not a ship.  Spec is the true lie to population.

 

When one has a ship and one wants to keep it.  You have to check into the game.  If you want to play the game through out the day then having a ship is so much better then a new spawn.

 

Recycling a new ship ie "look here i am"  randomly with a ship with 3 thors 3 rockets and i will attack you is crap.  Looking in the zone and seeing 13 players without ships. 3 of them bots is much worse then logging in and seeing someone who had the determination to green a ship and park that same ship in a safezone.  If you make it interesting enough for them to come out. Out they will come.

 

Complainers like Ninny will do just that until they have something else to complain about instead of putting in the effort to get new players or help others have fun.

 

Heres a better petition to begin  ask hallu to grant Axe Demento the power over public 2.

 

That is a 2nd public arena that are to his specifications.  I will then only play there those that want to play with me can and those that don't won't.  Heres what i'm looking for

0 bounty start

24 hour safezones

random shrap

power flag

Bots for Points

 

I am just as happy doing this as a separate zone but i think multi zones kill population.  But the population that i want is one of fun players not of chumps.  Its time for change a change that is a nod to the true game and one that has eyes on the future.

 

 

I will gladly cover the costs of the server costs and the website costs if this new pub arena is made. hallu has so many good items in chaos and with a few axejustments it can be so much more fun.

 

Also i will never ban someone from playing but if all they can do is complain or spam crap then a talk ban is what they get whether you can do this in a 2nd public area or if this is truely possible in the scope that i would enjoy we will see.

 

 

What gets people playing ss. is people playing ss why else do you think when i play i play even if there is no one else in the arena  its to get the 2nd player which leads to the next.  

Over the last few days as a punishment i have played less in response to ban axe demento and don't stay on a public freq. Let me know how the numbers have been.  I'll bet they have been less.

 

When all you do is complain all you get is grief

 

the problem is neither Axe Demento or a 13hour safe the problem is yourself

if you don't like what i say ?ignore=Axe Demento

 

if you don't like playing me don't   i don't go out of my way to play with anyone that is not fun to play with in fact i easily avoid them. 

 

Now as i start to form my plan for perhaps a Koas West or a Pub2 arena or even dare i say not give up hope on Pub1 (which i only offer leaving for people to enjoy themselves in an "axefree" zone.)

 

I will begin a new topic thread where all playing styles are welcome and 70 bounty starts are a thing of the past.

 

Soon i will be on vacation once again gone for 1-3months if you want to do a good job. Play more when i'm gone.

 

...Axe

 

Crushing chumps since 2012.

Playing ss since 95

Above all else have fun

this is the law

and i

am

its

AXE

[Obe]

I agree with Nude's post, long safe times have their pro's and con's and I can't really think of anything to add to that. Surely if there is a way to have bots disable anti, there is a way to forcefreq someone after 30 minutes in safe which would fix the pub freq problem.

 

That said, I'm not a huge fan of the 12 hour safe zone, the max that I could reasonably see is 3 hours. Enough time to go out have some dinner with friends, or drinks etc and come back. But even that's a stretch, without the Illegal quit rule being instituted there is no reason that anyone should need to be in a safe zone for more than an hour. If you care about your ship, you can exit the zone in a safe to keep your ship. With ships starting at ~70 bty depending on population greening is really a thing of the past unless you're greening up after burning some specials.

 

In regards to the above "axeasperating" changes, the only person that benefits is axe, and people that play like axe. Which is a major problem in chaos itself.

 

The way the current flag game is set up encourages little to no pilot engagement, which is only exaggerated during low population times. Currently the flag game rewards those that run, don't engage other players and just wait out the flag timer, usually fly in a jav to beat out anyone hoping to nab a flag themselves. As much as someone who complains about recycling for specials, that's exactly what the flag system does. You can waste specials with no retribution knowing that you can run from almost anyone in the zone, and just flag up to get your ship refilled.

 

If flag timers never expired players would actually have to engage each other and fight for the bonus that comes with the flag win. Either that or reduce the amount of specials that the flag win gives you. When the pub population is low 90% of the time it's too easy to exploit the flag game. Yeah I called it an exploit, reward for not taking part in combat, getting points and a "new" ship. When there is over 25 people in the zone the flag game is just fine, it's a lot more difficult to exploit.

 

I know that "being lame" is part of chaos, and I actually enjoy being lame from time to time. But in my opinion this is one of the most game-breaking, frustrating elements in the zone today. I'll admit I was having fun for the first few days, until I figured out the new level of lameness that had become chaos pub. Perhaps that's just an old chaos guy wanting an old chaos style zone, but I'm sure I'm not the only person that thinks this flag madness is a bit too much for a zone that's supposed to be about fighting anything that moves.

[7th]

lol @ axe's own public.  0 starting bty?  lol.  starting with lvl 1 bullets and 1000 nrg?  yeah, lets just kill the population more.  any new person would be neg killed in 1 second.  

 

axe owning anyone is a joke. 

 

I don't mind longer timers.  I was the one to propose having a spree/streak nulled after so long in a safe due to the fact you could have a neverending spree if you didn't.

 

let axe stick in the safe all he wants.  we all know he talks about nonsense and runs around in a jav 'attempting' to rep people into bombs/mines in which only a new player would fall for.

 

 

Edit - Also, just looking at the idea of having a ship (says axe) can be easy without safe sitting.  If you exit while in a safe and come back you will retain that ships items and bounty. 

[Gruntster]

I really don't see why the safe timer is that high at all. What is the point? I hate logging into the game and finding that the person on my public freq is on perma afk. If someone feels the need to sit in safe for that fucking long they need to change to a private freq or just quit the game and come back later. Obe, nude and Pluto are all correct imho. Make the timer 30 mins or so on pub freq and 13 hours on a private freq, simple.

[a tool]

THIS THREAD IS MY FAVORITE THREAD EVER JESUS CHRIST

[Axe Demento]

More thread spam in chaos plz

 

ninny get on that.

 

7th you fall for the bomb combo all the time when your not quiting to avoid a death like a chump

 

0 bounty for you,

 

you ship will be gone if you leave son. safezone keeps the ship.

if no one logs into the zone you may keep your ship upwards of 6hours

not often longer than that.

 

Much weak ss in this thread.

 

...Axe

[Ninespike]

Deleted.

[Axe Demento]

thank you for bringing more spam

 

as requested

 

When i see you i will move to freq 0 as you axe me to

 

you understand so little of ss

 

anyone who has a 70 bounty start has a full ship

 

I would gladly start with a 0 bounty ship

 

the game is the game

 

...Axe


if you are sick and tired of logging in. Only to find your supposed teamate is not in the game but is instead spamming http://www.subspace.co/topic/27259-13-hour-safe-time-abuse

don't worry.  Just press escape 1-8 and you will get a ship.

 

A ship you can play in chaos

NO Flyie No Talkie!

 

...Axe Bot

[Nude For Satan]

The point of exiting game from safe and retaining bounty for when you log back on is a great point - the premise is there - but falls down in execution.

 

Firstly, you have to leave the arena. Go to another arena or Esc-Q. If you spec, you lose the bounty.

 

Second (correct me if I'm wrong anyone), there is a glitch in the system that causes the bounty-retention feature to  be unreliable. If you trust to this option for retaining a bounty, you're essentially playing russian roulette with it.

 

A forced freqchange to a private freq (after 15 mins in safe) sounds like a plan, but like all things, its problematic.

- It sounds very much like a pretty tricky thing to factor into bot coding, if its possible at all.

- To what freq number? An incrementing set from 1001 onwards? First one goes to 1001, if its taken when next one is forcefreqed, they go to 1002? Third one goes to 1004 because 1003 was already in use by an active squad turret freq? Or all to one locked freq (say, 1001), which lol could thrust arch-enemies into the same freq.

[GC6]

Safe timer really doesn't affect Me or factor in my choosing to play.  Activity does.

If I'm going AFK, and for some reason desire to remain in the zone, I try to move to a private freq so I'm not screwing over a pub freq. That is my biggest gripe to be honest, when we have 3 or 4 man freq's and 2 of your team is perma AFK, and there is no where else to go because the other freqs are full AND active.

 

My lesser gripe


I struck those comments as they are my feelings on my perception of the situation, and I admit, that peception is not comlete, and thus has no place here, so sorry about that if anyone took offence to any thing insunuated by it.. not what I meant by it after reading it again... Arguing about the merits of which form of inactivity is best for Chaos and enabling it I think is the least of things we can be doing to move forward... as far as I'm concerned, make it 24hrs, and I'll green an alt on my media server and leave it logged in 24/7 if thats really what We're going for.. lol.... it's a little silly to me is all. 


To add a solution:


I guess I'd just ask ; If you're going to actually be Inactive and stay in a safe zone, please change to a private freq.


How do we define 'inactivity' - Lets discuss it.

What time limit do we place on it? - Discuss it.

Do we need to police it? - shouldn't need too..


I think if you claim to actually care about this zone, and keeping it running at all,

it's a resonable request, and easily do-able. A lot of people do it now anyway.. I even see Axe do it from time to time.

So it seems to be something already in play.  I'm just asking you all to consider it, you know when you're not going to be active, don't take up a spot on a pub freq, and we won't need to maybe change the safe timer or get into this type of argument, attacking one another... I think people will be more likely to hop in (especially etsablished players) if they know they won't be on a freq with an inactive player(s).  

 

Thanks for the input.

 

~GC6

[Plutorus]

Good point, GC6. I'm often back and forth; I'll start switching to priv when I know I'm going to be somewhat inactive going fwd Thx

 

-Plut

[a tool]

so it's totally cool for people to sit in safe for upwards of 12+ hours at a time, but i can't sit in safe for FIVE minutes with anti on? seriously. what the fuck.

BBBUT TOOL IT'S TO KEEP PEOPLE FROM SITTING IN SAFE WITH ANTI ON FOR THIRTEEN HOURS

 

no shit.

[Axe Demento]

the funny thing is that is what i would do most all the time go to my personal freq

but then ninny opened his mouth

 

 

and that makes me treat him as i must.

 

more website spam in chaos plz.

ninny get on that.

 

...Axe

 

the only thing that works is playing the game. in safe is much better then in spec.

And flying around is the best of all. and none of you can say i don't play the game more then anyone currently.  Thats why i will fly around with no one playing. it brings in the 2nd player. and the 4th etc.

 

If people wanted a better response they would commit a certain number of ships a day kills and deaths.  If you broke the day into say 6 or 8 parts.  you could have a couple people playing at any time.  The reason why 4v4 doesn't get new players is they are horrible at helping new players play.

The pub is good for that.  7th and the neg killing new players comment a couple of responses above is cuz thats what 4v4 teaches people.  Attack a new guy 4 on 1 till he quits.  What you need to do is leave that player alone and let him or her play as they grow. Or open the outside of the map to bots and new players. let them play outside on there own as they learn. This would be good for the doges  i can avoid a 100 negs while i search for the target i want.

What some people don't seem to realize is i don't need chumps to play with. When i like your play style and attitude i will do everything to help you enjoy yourself.  If your rude you get crush

and the crush is not silent. bring in !bonus negged  player will start his next ship at 0 bounty now that would be fun.

 

 

 

...Axe

[7th]

lol, I don't think anyone takes axe serious.  if you start at 0 bounty people will get neg killed and it will not be because of a 4v4 player.  most 4v4 players actually go for a larger bty, unless they want to kill people who are stupid runners or ship changers like axe demento or skiz who think they are good, but are not even close to being good.  the only players that could possibly be crushed by axe are those with 0 bounty.  

[Ninespike]

Deleted.

[Bargeld]

Alpha had 30 minute timer. It was actually a big deal for us to expand it from the default of 15 minutes due to our strict SVS policy, but over time, 15 mins really proved it was a tad too short. 9 or 12 hours? Ridiculous! Also, dual logging used to be an issue when people parked a second login on their freq at J14 and just used it for free team anti... not sure if that is a consideration today or not.

 

There is a server.ini setting:

NoAntiInSafe=0

 

Use it or don't use it... there should be no need for dynamically changing it. With the setting allowing anti, you have players saying 'i forgot to turn it off when i entered the safety'. With the setting disabling anti, people will say 'i forgot to turn it on when I left safety'. Pick the lesser of the evils, or the more desired result and stick with it.

 

As far as the pro's and con's, I think they have been covered reasonably well. What is more important is the effect on gameplay... certain points can be a pro or a con, but if they rarely impact gameplay, then it doesn't really matter, so an aggregate 'there are more pros than cons' doesn't work. What IS important is generating more gameplay and happy gamers.

 

Axe killed his own argument:

<div> </div>
<div>

Quote:When one has a ship and one wants to keep it.  You have to check into the game.  If you want to play the game through out the day then having a ship is so much better then a new spawn.

</div>
 

Then goes on to say:

<div> </div>
<div>

Quote:anyone who has a 70 bounty start has a full ship

</div>
 

So safety isn't really about saving a ship. To reinforce this statement, I would say that players who care about the quality of their ships have !bonus options to use. If they use their !bonus to max a ship to their standards every time they return from an afk session longer than 30 minutes, it provides an incentive to play more in order to regain the !bonus points that they are using. So rather than sitting around with 60-70 bonus with a 250 bounty ship in safety all the time, you end up with players actually playing (not in a safety) with say 40 !bonus with an incentive to play more.

 

As a final note, I would like to mention 'new players'. Hopefully this won't derail the topic at hand, but IMO, what the general public thinks about a new player's behavior and thought process are compete guesses. To add on to that, I would doubt that new players occur often enough to really change the zone settings to cater to them. During the downward slide of Alpha, I learned that it was more important to cater to the current playerbase than to try to cater to the new player. You will lose more players due to attrition and displeasure with their opinion of their zone than you will end up gaining through influx of new players trying to 'guess' what you think you need to do to make them stay. Players leave the game/zone more frequently than they start playing/adopt a new zone.

 

Summary: do 30 minutes, it makes players start a new ship and use their bonus, then play to replenish it. New players prefer a fair fight, so their 70 vs a safety-saved 250 or 1000 sucks for them anyway. Use the zone setting to turn off anti in safety if it's really an issue.

[Axe Demento]

you misunderstand the points made

 

its not about saving a ship its about having a ship

 

many times a low bounty ship with fresh stuff can be more powerful then a saved ship that has 3000

 

when you take pride in having a ship you want to keep it.  Perhaps you do not understand these fine points

 

I never toss bounty i like it to go back to the zone.  with a long safezone i can do this.

Heatstroke revisited my idea of .saveship .loadship  for if you want to keep your ship but leave.  Either works for me. Of course the real from of long term parking would be to run up a 15k ship which even i have not yet done as internets are never reliable over a week  tho i think i have kept a ship alive for 5 days trouble is with that the weekend comes and its time to take people our for dinner or go shopping

 

Hallu made the bot take away anti warp after 2 minutes. many due to Mr Xplosion if i remember who did not play but would log in just to aw from safe.  It didn't bother me i used him using aw to my own benefits when i flew near his ship i would save aw costs

 

also reading bargoats comments i can see why he could neither keep or attract players for his zone.

 

the game is the game.

When you play you play

no more

no less

but to all that play

be the best.

and

above

all 

else

have

FUN

 

...ps ninny i need more spam plz i would like a weblink! and thanks for noticing i was on public freq 4. i will change to 0

 

 

...AXE