12-30-2011, 06:39 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-30-2011, 06:41 PM by hallucination.)
I split this off into it's own topic, as it's something quite separate from Calling Out Coords, and has much more merit. I'll add a little more info:
1) People have never been forced off freqs. I considered and rejected it in the first implementation of dynamic freqsizes back in 1999.
2) I've always thought that forcing people off would be incredibly messy (as demonstrated by the scenarios above), and just end up making people mad. I have yet to think of/hear an idea where that wouldn't be the case. In general, people do not like to be forced/selected to do something that is not their own choice. This is a game, and for fun.
3) About current freq size switch points and the relationship with green settings:
During SVS weekend last spring, I noticed an increase in teamwork. Freq size was fixed at 6. Of course, the same problems that spurred me to create dynamic freqsizes in the first place were present during low populations (very unequal teams; huge disincentive to start a new freq of others were full). But between larger freqsizes and lower starting bty (30), there was more team play. We'd often see 6v6.
(Side note: FYI, overall, population did not go up during SVS weekend -- it was extremely similar to the surrounding weeks(just some diff ppl were there -- it was a nice change of pace))
Teamwork and squad play was a critical part of the glory days of Chaos imo. I've been hoping to reignite more squad v squad play and competition since my return -- foremost with work it took to bring back squad stats -- but we have yet to see any Chaos squad consistently utilize swarming, the most powerful and most challenging way to play, as a strategy to dominate the zone as we constantly saw in the old days. 4v4 was born out of these Chaos zone squad rivalries -- one swarm against another; just move it to a solo arena. Pro players still do swarm in Chaos, and yes, they completely dominate when they do it. I was hoping that league squads would take each other on in Chaos -- but they mostly avoid engaging each other, and go after the weaker fish.
People have forgotten these play patterns though, and most current Chaos players have a solo mindset...
So, with my persistent hope to respark more squad play (which would lead to recruitment, and bring in new players to the zone), I ran a number of experiments to see if something could be done to encourage more team play. One of the first was to make the minimum freqsize be 3. I also experimented extensively with changing the dynamic green settings, as the low bty start necessitates team greening to a much larger extent. I enhanced the dynamic settings to tweak more variables, and do so at a fine grain of detail.
When I tried lowering green settings to force more team greening, there were many, many complaints about too few greens, even though the number of greens available and the starting bty were much less severe than SVS. I am data driven though, and I kept the changes in long enough to see if the contingency would take hold, and people would realize that team play was the way to go, people would start to get more serious about forming squads and working together, and thereby population would increase. Basically, it didn't happen -- population remained flat, but also, I saw none of the precursor steps of increased team play, and squad oriented play and thinking.
I slowly increased green settings to what they were previously (still had complaints) and then to even more than before (long story about how I made that possible without breaking several aspects of the game design). The complaints stopped, but more interesting was that population went up somewhat.
At the same time, I slightly tweaked the freqsize switch points to try and achieve fewer scenarios where we'd get uneven freqs (like 4v2v2v1v1v1)
4) I have long thought about trying to implement a version where the freqsize does not drop until there are no freqs of the larger size (as Axe mentioned in his first post). This seems fair to me.
5) The upside of a min freqsize of 3 is that people get to choose how they play. Yes, there are the jerks that keep a 3v1, or even worse, keep a 3 pilot freq when no one else is in, ready to drive any single player from the zone if they try to play. Thankfully these are few. With the current setting, 6 ppl can choose to be 1v1v1v1v1v1 or 2v2v2 or 3v3, or 2v2v1v1. That option to choose is kind of nice (people like the freedom to choose), especially if you are trying to help a newb get started here.
6) The option of having #4 above + lower freq sizes (as in prev implementations) could work. I'm not sure that a forced size of 1 is the best thing though. Everyone on a solo freq never feels like Chaos to me -- Chaos is teams, swarms, turrets, _and_ solo pilots.
7) Axe -- why 4 min instead of 3? 4v1 is distinctly worse than 3v1 imo, and we'd see definitely see the jerks pulling that stuff.
8) I do miss big 6+ pilot turrets. Dyn freq sizes do go up to 10, if we get enough people. We have achieved 6 pilot freqs in the last year, but it's been rare.
--hallu
1) People have never been forced off freqs. I considered and rejected it in the first implementation of dynamic freqsizes back in 1999.
2) I've always thought that forcing people off would be incredibly messy (as demonstrated by the scenarios above), and just end up making people mad. I have yet to think of/hear an idea where that wouldn't be the case. In general, people do not like to be forced/selected to do something that is not their own choice. This is a game, and for fun.
3) About current freq size switch points and the relationship with green settings:
During SVS weekend last spring, I noticed an increase in teamwork. Freq size was fixed at 6. Of course, the same problems that spurred me to create dynamic freqsizes in the first place were present during low populations (very unequal teams; huge disincentive to start a new freq of others were full). But between larger freqsizes and lower starting bty (30), there was more team play. We'd often see 6v6.
(Side note: FYI, overall, population did not go up during SVS weekend -- it was extremely similar to the surrounding weeks(just some diff ppl were there -- it was a nice change of pace))
Teamwork and squad play was a critical part of the glory days of Chaos imo. I've been hoping to reignite more squad v squad play and competition since my return -- foremost with work it took to bring back squad stats -- but we have yet to see any Chaos squad consistently utilize swarming, the most powerful and most challenging way to play, as a strategy to dominate the zone as we constantly saw in the old days. 4v4 was born out of these Chaos zone squad rivalries -- one swarm against another; just move it to a solo arena. Pro players still do swarm in Chaos, and yes, they completely dominate when they do it. I was hoping that league squads would take each other on in Chaos -- but they mostly avoid engaging each other, and go after the weaker fish.
People have forgotten these play patterns though, and most current Chaos players have a solo mindset...
So, with my persistent hope to respark more squad play (which would lead to recruitment, and bring in new players to the zone), I ran a number of experiments to see if something could be done to encourage more team play. One of the first was to make the minimum freqsize be 3. I also experimented extensively with changing the dynamic green settings, as the low bty start necessitates team greening to a much larger extent. I enhanced the dynamic settings to tweak more variables, and do so at a fine grain of detail.
When I tried lowering green settings to force more team greening, there were many, many complaints about too few greens, even though the number of greens available and the starting bty were much less severe than SVS. I am data driven though, and I kept the changes in long enough to see if the contingency would take hold, and people would realize that team play was the way to go, people would start to get more serious about forming squads and working together, and thereby population would increase. Basically, it didn't happen -- population remained flat, but also, I saw none of the precursor steps of increased team play, and squad oriented play and thinking.
I slowly increased green settings to what they were previously (still had complaints) and then to even more than before (long story about how I made that possible without breaking several aspects of the game design). The complaints stopped, but more interesting was that population went up somewhat.
At the same time, I slightly tweaked the freqsize switch points to try and achieve fewer scenarios where we'd get uneven freqs (like 4v2v2v1v1v1)
4) I have long thought about trying to implement a version where the freqsize does not drop until there are no freqs of the larger size (as Axe mentioned in his first post). This seems fair to me.
5) The upside of a min freqsize of 3 is that people get to choose how they play. Yes, there are the jerks that keep a 3v1, or even worse, keep a 3 pilot freq when no one else is in, ready to drive any single player from the zone if they try to play. Thankfully these are few. With the current setting, 6 ppl can choose to be 1v1v1v1v1v1 or 2v2v2 or 3v3, or 2v2v1v1. That option to choose is kind of nice (people like the freedom to choose), especially if you are trying to help a newb get started here.
6) The option of having #4 above + lower freq sizes (as in prev implementations) could work. I'm not sure that a forced size of 1 is the best thing though. Everyone on a solo freq never feels like Chaos to me -- Chaos is teams, swarms, turrets, _and_ solo pilots.
7) Axe -- why 4 min instead of 3? 4v1 is distinctly worse than 3v1 imo, and we'd see definitely see the jerks pulling that stuff.
8) I do miss big 6+ pilot turrets. Dyn freq sizes do go up to 10, if we get enough people. We have achieved 6 pilot freqs in the last year, but it's been rare.
--hallu