04-08-2011, 01:59 AM
Lets hope all this manual quoting works (people are gonna start talking about us soon, Jazz):
You'd have to ask Hallu what his intended sample period was. Clearly a reset came around and he's looked at the feedback and found there to be no noticeable advantage to continue on with the change. This reminds me a little of the 3-mine max test, too (during Halloween reset last year). When its reset time, and the experiment has yielded no pressing argument to retain the change, its rolled back. A change should never be retained if is no sufficient level of merit in doing so. I quoted resets because that's the time to conclude a test. I'm just confused that you're asking why a change that failed to bring sufficient support was rolled back at the most optimum time for rolling it back.
I think Hallu had already answered this, and he knows more about it than me, but the results apparently were : Benefit level insufficient to warrant implementation. Detriment level insufficient to exclude implementation. Feedback: some opposition, minimal support. All feedback (for and against) somewhat biased toward personal preference. ( Samgunn Jav ambushes and then runs, dropping mines behind him - 1 minute mines are perfect for his style of play <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='8)' /> ). Conclusion: not worth changing. <--- this is my take on it, no-one else's. And I'm not trying to be a prick about it. I just thought this kind of went without saying. Maybe I'm wrong.
Its a pretty basic experiment. I just expanded findings there to make them a larger paragraph than really is required. In reality, findings are: "nah, didn't do nuffin' much".
I agree with you. I think his playing style is lame. Which makes it pretty hard for your accusation - that I believe its your opinion alone - to hold up, doesn't it? There may very well have been other people around who liked the 1-minute mine timer. They didn't comment, but they might have felt this way without commenting, or even knowing it was up for comment. Maybe I should have PM'd a few people and got their votes, but not from Gad's troupe. Lemme see, I'll ask A Thai Stick, Turbotron, Skiz, Dr Fat Finger, ... ok that's a smart-arse comment but I guess I'm just making a point.
I totally agree. And yes, agreed, its not mutually exclusive.
Well, yes, you are wrong. Told you why up above, in this post. And in the post before that. And in the post before that. Etc. What the hell is this info you keep asking for. The reasons have been given in almost every post. NO CLEAR BENEFIT. I keep visualising The Simpsons "I though I told you to get rid of those sideburns".
I didn't say you think it should be. I said that's its not. This was a comment based on the changing environment of the zone and how what was simply "somewhat lame" in early years is now "very lame" more recently. A test was made. It didn't convince anyone to keep it on. It is rolled back.
You continue to express a major disappointment that something which failed testing is not to be introduced regardless? You seem to feel very strongly that mine-repping is lame enough that an unsupported test settings change should be implemented.
Yes, I was the only other person that complained about the 1min mines. I stated that when I'm chasing a running opponent, they can crap mines in my path and regain them for re-use twice as quickly. Avoiding those mines to cause the runner to run out of mines is a response tactic now halved in value. I've said it forums and I've said it in-game.
Yes, inconclusive. You heard it here ninth, folks.
I must read back to find your Pros and Cons because I have overlooked them.
I'll read back to see what questions you put to Gad, but your questions haven't been dismissed. I've given you my responses myriad times. That's what this post, post #29 on this thread, post #24 on this thread, and many other posts on other threads are dedicated to.
I don't argue with this. Gad is welcome to respond to that.
They are welcome to speak up, its been a topic of conversation in-game as well. You can also get out the vote if you want. This was a CHANGE to a setting. This has also been argued in in-game chat. Gad etc made their positions clear. I have seen three people that we could expand to try to frame as pro-1m-mine voters. Yourself, samgunn (who came on board after the fact but his vote is valid) and Surrey, who said, simply "lol @ Gad whining on the forums". If a heap of people now start to complain that the change was rolled back, that input would still be taken into account.
Yes sam's input is also appreciated. He gave a good solid for and against mix. And I agree with you that ideally, no changes would be best, except that the environment (playing numbers) has changed enough that this isn't really so.
PS: lol its noon already. Do more of this please, its making my day fly by <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unknw:' />
Quote:So how long was this ââ¬Ëexperimentââ¬â¢ going on for ?
Quote:And NFS why are you talking about the RESET 'wasnt brought forward or delayed to accomodate anything' ?!?!
You'd have to ask Hallu what his intended sample period was. Clearly a reset came around and he's looked at the feedback and found there to be no noticeable advantage to continue on with the change. This reminds me a little of the 3-mine max test, too (during Halloween reset last year). When its reset time, and the experiment has yielded no pressing argument to retain the change, its rolled back. A change should never be retained if is no sufficient level of merit in doing so. I quoted resets because that's the time to conclude a test. I'm just confused that you're asking why a change that failed to bring sufficient support was rolled back at the most optimum time for rolling it back.
Quote:And as I already asked ââ¬Â¦.. what IS the data that was evaluated and what were the findings ?
Quote:If youre claiming to run it as an experiment, then publish your findings LIKE you would with an experiment
Quote: at least expand on the info AFTER the experiment by providing some answers so we can see what can be learned from the experiment.
You can learn a lot from FAILED experiments as well as SUCCESSFUL ones ââ¬Â¦..
I think Hallu had already answered this, and he knows more about it than me, but the results apparently were : Benefit level insufficient to warrant implementation. Detriment level insufficient to exclude implementation. Feedback: some opposition, minimal support. All feedback (for and against) somewhat biased toward personal preference. ( Samgunn Jav ambushes and then runs, dropping mines behind him - 1 minute mines are perfect for his style of play <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='8)' /> ). Conclusion: not worth changing. <--- this is my take on it, no-one else's. And I'm not trying to be a prick about it. I just thought this kind of went without saying. Maybe I'm wrong.
Its a pretty basic experiment. I just expanded findings there to make them a larger paragraph than really is required. In reality, findings are: "nah, didn't do nuffin' much".
Quote:Do you actually KNOW if the experiment had 'run its course' ? The appearance is that the 'experiment' was ended at the EARLIEST convenient opportunity (i.e. nearest reset .... "coincidentally" within days of Gads whining). And with no information, claiming the 'experiment had run its course' as the convenient justification for this ending still seems alot like caving in .....Well I sure can't argue with perspective! If it "seems" like caving in, to you, then it seems like caving in, to you. I admit you are correct and it does, definitely, seem to you as though its caving in.
Quote:No information was given about the changes BEFORE it occurred (so that results werenââ¬â¢t contaminated?),That's the information I have.
Quote:NFS ââ¬Â¦.. lol im pretty sure im not the only person who thinks his playing ââ¬Ëstlyeââ¬â¢ is lame ââ¬Â¦ but ok You can assume that its just MY opinion ALONE if youd like. As always the silent majority will remain ââ¬Â¦ silent So we wont really know which way they go do we ?
I agree with you. I think his playing style is lame. Which makes it pretty hard for your accusation - that I believe its your opinion alone - to hold up, doesn't it? There may very well have been other people around who liked the 1-minute mine timer. They didn't comment, but they might have felt this way without commenting, or even knowing it was up for comment. Maybe I should have PM'd a few people and got their votes, but not from Gad's troupe. Lemme see, I'll ask A Thai Stick, Turbotron, Skiz, Dr Fat Finger, ... ok that's a smart-arse comment but I guess I'm just making a point.
Quote:And as youââ¬â¢ve already agreed, ive made some effort to contribute to these forums. Hopefully it helps the zone. Maybe it affects play-styles that I donââ¬â¢t personally like. Does that mean they are mutually exclusive ?!?!?
I totally agree. And yes, agreed, its not mutually exclusive.
Quote:I can make the claim that its ââ¬ËCAVING INââ¬â¢ because the ONLY info I HAVE to go on so far is that ââ¬ÅGAD CRIES = SETTINGS CHANGED BACK ASAPââ¬Â
And yes ââ¬Â¦. I CAN claim that a change was made to specifically NOT hurt Gad. Why ? Because as mentioned, ââ¬ËGad and his gunners complain that it hurts them, and settings were changedââ¬â¢.
But feel free to tell me im wrong ââ¬Â¦.. I donââ¬â¢t mind. Just tell me why
Quote:Same way I will ALSO agree or disagree with points, but i at least will state my reasons ââ¬Â¦.. because then there can be some clarification. Which is where the info I requested earlier comes in.
Well, yes, you are wrong. Told you why up above, in this post. And in the post before that. And in the post before that. Etc. What the hell is this info you keep asking for. The reasons have been given in almost every post. NO CLEAR BENEFIT. I keep visualising The Simpsons "I though I told you to get rid of those sideburns".
Quote:Quote:Nude For Satan, on 07 April 2011 - 11:40 AM, said:
Mine-repping is not illegal and not some new superweapon. Its been around for ages. Its not to be outlawed. Sure, its easier in this day and age to lamely pwn with its use, so maybe some scaling adjustments are necessary. But no more than that.
Ummmmm ââ¬Â¦.. I donââ¬â¢t remember EVER saying it should be illegal and outlawed. So please show me where ive said this. Ive said I think itââ¬â¢s a lame tactic.
If you're going to claim IM trying 'disinformation' (despite providing references and reasoning with my posts) then you should at least show me where i said that ..... ?
I didn't say you think it should be. I said that's its not. This was a comment based on the changing environment of the zone and how what was simply "somewhat lame" in early years is now "very lame" more recently. A test was made. It didn't convince anyone to keep it on. It is rolled back.
You continue to express a major disappointment that something which failed testing is not to be introduced regardless? You seem to feel very strongly that mine-repping is lame enough that an unsupported test settings change should be implemented.
Quote:Quote:Nude For Satan, on 07 April 2011 - 11:40 AM, said:
This is more purely Hallu's side of things, but I have seen a lot of negative feedback from Gad and folk who generally can be seen gunning on Gad. I've not seen anyone totally pro-1 minute mines. I have not seen anyone overly helped or hurt by the change. I killed a bountied up poo bucket with a mine rep yesterday, man that was sweet
The only other person I've seen make a negative comment about the 1-minute timer, is me.
Overall, the results seem inconclusive. So, at the end of the test period, it would make sense to reset it to how it was before.
If we dismiss Gad & co's opposition as pure whining - and ignore it, then we are left with a 0 for, 0 against result. A tie. So it fails to make the cut.
Errr NFS ââ¬Â¦. The only other person that complained about the 1min mines was you ? ââ¬Â¦. Was this before or after you mine-repped ? LOL. If you go back and read my post, it wasnââ¬â¢t about hurting GAD, it was about finding a ââ¬Ëscaling adjustmentââ¬â¢ (as you called it), the 1min mines may not have started as this but WERE a scaling adjustment ââ¬Â¦.. to reflect the zone as it is now. SMALL, with very FEW players. Ive explained how in other posts.
Yes, I was the only other person that complained about the 1min mines. I stated that when I'm chasing a running opponent, they can crap mines in my path and regain them for re-use twice as quickly. Avoiding those mines to cause the runner to run out of mines is a response tactic now halved in value. I've said it forums and I've said it in-game.
Quote:As stated before, ââ¬Ëinconclusiveââ¬â¢? At helping new people ? You mean those TWO people who turreted hallu while Gad was there (one time I saw them turreting), but played on their own while no one was mine repping (again I saw them once).
Was it also inconclusive as a ââ¬Ëscaling adjustmentââ¬â¢ too ? Ive posted PROs and CONs with regard to that. Which part of that was inclonclusive ? I donââ¬â¢t remember seeing any responses to that. Iââ¬â¢ll go recheck later.
Yes, inconclusive. You heard it here ninth, folks.
I must read back to find your Pros and Cons because I have overlooked them.
Quote:And Gad&Cos whining isnââ¬â¢t being dismissed, I asked him to provide info too. Which he conveniently hasnââ¬â¢t. However it seems my OWN questions ARE being dismissed So apparently its not information thats sought, but non-substantiated whining.
I'll read back to see what questions you put to Gad, but your questions haven't been dismissed. I've given you my responses myriad times. That's what this post, post #29 on this thread, post #24 on this thread, and many other posts on other threads are dedicated to.
Quote:You asked ME if im trying to help the zone, or hurt a playing style ââ¬Â¦..go back and read my posts, ive ALREADY provided answers in the form of pros and cons as to why it would help the zone and what type of styles it would probably affect and HOW. So ask Gad the same questionââ¬Â¦.. ââ¬ÅAt this point the question must asked: would you like to see things happen that help the zone, or things happen that hurt play-style you personally don't like?ââ¬Â (hunters and general melee fighters).
I don't argue with this. Gad is welcome to respond to that.
Quote:Quote:Nude For Satan, on 07 April 2011 - 11:40 AM, said:
Honestly, if no-one else seems to think it helped them feel any safer or better defended against those lamers, then ... who cares?
Is that what they actually SAID, or what youre assuming ? Did you ask ? How many chaos players read the forums regularly and followed the discussion to consider the positions ?
They are welcome to speak up, its been a topic of conversation in-game as well. You can also get out the vote if you want. This was a CHANGE to a setting. This has also been argued in in-game chat. Gad etc made their positions clear. I have seen three people that we could expand to try to frame as pro-1m-mine voters. Yourself, samgunn (who came on board after the fact but his vote is valid) and Surrey, who said, simply "lol @ Gad whining on the forums". If a heap of people now start to complain that the change was rolled back, that input would still be taken into account.
Quote:Samy seems to think it DID help. Chances are there are others who believe the same. But he says he would still prefer no changes being made. Which is totally fine. He noticed a difference, but just doesnt think any changes should be made to certain settings from the original days.
Ideally that would be great ..... if it was still the old days with LOTS of players.
Yes sam's input is also appreciated. He gave a good solid for and against mix. And I agree with you that ideally, no changes would be best, except that the environment (playing numbers) has changed enough that this isn't really so.
PS: lol its noon already. Do more of this please, its making my day fly by <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unknw:' />
One of the three most dangerous people in Subspace.