We could orate for days on this subject, but it seems we're all just going 'round and round' on theoreticals...
Lets see if we can whittle all this down into some easy to read and reflect upon points that have come up thus far.
1: default flag carry time may be too high for the size of the map and the aggregate population of CZ at this time.
2: We don't know what the minimum bty needed via kill to reset the flag timers are - but it seems low whatever it is.
3: Prize rewards for flag games - particularly those with little to no flag points accumulated - or low pop times are too high - this gets exponetially worse as population sees upticks as the more people in the zone, the higher the reward scales.
4: The averge non-flagger is at a effort/reward disadvantage compared to flaggers given equal time in the zone.
5: We give non-flaggers on freqs with flaggers massive green prizes they have not earned at all via participation in flagging, but cap team greening at 100 - because giving away too many free greens to people is "ridiculous".
If I were to make any suggestion based on any of the input this far, this is approximately what I'd do.
1: Flag timer set to 120 seconds, or 2 minutes (Down from 3 right now)
It's too high right now for the size of the map, and the average zone populations - one can easily win a flag game within the base 180 second timer - the timer should be just enough to get from flag to flag, and or accomodate a fight either with another flagger or qulifying BTY for reset... Yes, you get less time to do it, so, you better be good at finding and engaging your targets and finishing the kill... not just avoiding everyone else till their timers expire. (For what it's worth ; if we're going to say it's 'justified' that flaggers can run to make timers expire to win a flag games via non-engagement, then it's equally as valid for normal players to avoid flaggers so they can't reset their timers. -can't have it both ways, sorry.
2: Whatever the flag timer is set at, set the minimum bty to kill to reset the flag timer to exactly the same number..
120 second flag timer, have to kill a 120 bty ship to reset it. 100 seconds, 100 bty, 180 seconds, 180bty...
This should theoretically do two things ;
1: Level the playing field a bit between flag winners and the average joes they encounter in so far as ship strength.
2: Going after other flag carriers , instead of non-engagement forcing them to drop, becomes necessary, as timer resets with
a flag kill regardless of the carriers bounty. Ie, it should turn the flaggers inward on eachother and create more play between
active flaggers than there is now, buy making the odds of refresh for a flag kill better than non-engagement strategies or trying to find
the needed minimum bty to reset it alone.
Coupling these two things together I think forces them to actually participate in the majority of zone play while still maintaining their flag game as close to what it is as possible, and without getting too mad with the Bots and the like... these two things are 'vanilla' settings.
Now, while I think the two settings above by themsleves could be changed and acheive the desired effects - I'd also reduce the prize rewards for a flag win, as well as increase the team green share to match whatever the Kill bty to reset the timer is.
If you need a 120 bty to reset the flag timer, then team greens should go to 120 too...or what ever that number becomes, provided it doesn't go lower that 100.. consider it likea good faith offering to flaggers... If we say you need 120 bty to rset your timer, we should take care to put that sort of target in their reticals, or making it more common.
But again, these are ancillary for me, and more or less 'fine tuning' adjustments we can also look at down the line as or if things progress...
At the very very least, I think if we touched nothing else at all, reducing the carry timer to 120 would help, and looking at reducing either prize rewards, or increasing team greens to equalize the rewards would be easy to manage, and not blow everything else up too much.
I will add that Axe makes some good points too... it would seem that flagging has a very very slight 'higher regard' for preservation when it comes to CZ right now... It's a touch unbalanced compared to typical CZ zone play - and in some cases, flaggers/flagging seems to get different 'protections' as it were than preserving CZ zone play does..
Ie: are we trying to hard to keep flaggin alive and missing how it's current implementation does not actually forward the goals and ideals of general Chaos play?
I get that without flags in CZ, SVS flagging is done, dead as a door nail, stick a fork in it... if we don't use it, it dies - but it can't be parasitic in it's implementation and anything that starts making CZ more "you MUST flag to keep up with flaggers - because they are the most powerful" - makes CZ a Flagging zone, not a 'Chaos' zone.
But as I said from the onset, the way we've shoehorned flagging in here - this was bound to happen eventually.
~Edits for spelling and calrification of idears.
Lets see if we can whittle all this down into some easy to read and reflect upon points that have come up thus far.
1: default flag carry time may be too high for the size of the map and the aggregate population of CZ at this time.
2: We don't know what the minimum bty needed via kill to reset the flag timers are - but it seems low whatever it is.
3: Prize rewards for flag games - particularly those with little to no flag points accumulated - or low pop times are too high - this gets exponetially worse as population sees upticks as the more people in the zone, the higher the reward scales.
4: The averge non-flagger is at a effort/reward disadvantage compared to flaggers given equal time in the zone.
5: We give non-flaggers on freqs with flaggers massive green prizes they have not earned at all via participation in flagging, but cap team greening at 100 - because giving away too many free greens to people is "ridiculous".
If I were to make any suggestion based on any of the input this far, this is approximately what I'd do.
1: Flag timer set to 120 seconds, or 2 minutes (Down from 3 right now)
It's too high right now for the size of the map, and the average zone populations - one can easily win a flag game within the base 180 second timer - the timer should be just enough to get from flag to flag, and or accomodate a fight either with another flagger or qulifying BTY for reset... Yes, you get less time to do it, so, you better be good at finding and engaging your targets and finishing the kill... not just avoiding everyone else till their timers expire. (For what it's worth ; if we're going to say it's 'justified' that flaggers can run to make timers expire to win a flag games via non-engagement, then it's equally as valid for normal players to avoid flaggers so they can't reset their timers. -can't have it both ways, sorry.
2: Whatever the flag timer is set at, set the minimum bty to kill to reset the flag timer to exactly the same number..
120 second flag timer, have to kill a 120 bty ship to reset it. 100 seconds, 100 bty, 180 seconds, 180bty...
This should theoretically do two things ;
1: Level the playing field a bit between flag winners and the average joes they encounter in so far as ship strength.
2: Going after other flag carriers , instead of non-engagement forcing them to drop, becomes necessary, as timer resets with
a flag kill regardless of the carriers bounty. Ie, it should turn the flaggers inward on eachother and create more play between
active flaggers than there is now, buy making the odds of refresh for a flag kill better than non-engagement strategies or trying to find
the needed minimum bty to reset it alone.
Coupling these two things together I think forces them to actually participate in the majority of zone play while still maintaining their flag game as close to what it is as possible, and without getting too mad with the Bots and the like... these two things are 'vanilla' settings.
Now, while I think the two settings above by themsleves could be changed and acheive the desired effects - I'd also reduce the prize rewards for a flag win, as well as increase the team green share to match whatever the Kill bty to reset the timer is.
If you need a 120 bty to reset the flag timer, then team greens should go to 120 too...or what ever that number becomes, provided it doesn't go lower that 100.. consider it likea good faith offering to flaggers... If we say you need 120 bty to rset your timer, we should take care to put that sort of target in their reticals, or making it more common.
But again, these are ancillary for me, and more or less 'fine tuning' adjustments we can also look at down the line as or if things progress...
At the very very least, I think if we touched nothing else at all, reducing the carry timer to 120 would help, and looking at reducing either prize rewards, or increasing team greens to equalize the rewards would be easy to manage, and not blow everything else up too much.
I will add that Axe makes some good points too... it would seem that flagging has a very very slight 'higher regard' for preservation when it comes to CZ right now... It's a touch unbalanced compared to typical CZ zone play - and in some cases, flaggers/flagging seems to get different 'protections' as it were than preserving CZ zone play does..
Ie: are we trying to hard to keep flaggin alive and missing how it's current implementation does not actually forward the goals and ideals of general Chaos play?
I get that without flags in CZ, SVS flagging is done, dead as a door nail, stick a fork in it... if we don't use it, it dies - but it can't be parasitic in it's implementation and anything that starts making CZ more "you MUST flag to keep up with flaggers - because they are the most powerful" - makes CZ a Flagging zone, not a 'Chaos' zone.
But as I said from the onset, the way we've shoehorned flagging in here - this was bound to happen eventually.
~Edits for spelling and calrification of idears.