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As my goal is to respond to every post <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' /> muhahah
I enjoy gad's turrets they are fun to hunt as i'm from 1995 doesnt seem bad to me.
I hate recyling ships, high bounty starts and anyone specing.
Coords from spec when someones not playing or reporting what another ship/player/turrets got isnt the game for me its against my warrior code.
i see polix mentioned a point i was wondering about as well.
you should always be able to form a team of equal size to what evers in the zone.
ie when you have 16-20 players and can form 4 man teams. Everyone should be able to get 4 untill that team drops to 3 then the zone goes down to that.
i personaly would like to see no teams till 5-6 players. or never have a team limit less than 4.
I can go into further details if needed.
But others input always interested in.
play chaos!!
...Axe
ps i will get 6 man turrets back into chaos one way or another.... and then i will kill them. with my reps <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
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12-30-2011, 11:10 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-30-2011, 06:32 PM by Nude For Satan.)
[quote name='Axe Demento' timestamp='1324927017' post='280286']you should always be able to form a team of equal size to what evers in the zone.
ie when you have 16-20 players and can form 4 man teams. Everyone should be able to get 4 untill that team drops to 3 then the zone goes down to that.
i personaly would like to see no teams till 5-6 players. or never have a team limit less than 4.
[/quote]
On the surface, this looks impossible to argue with. From memory, though, there were fair reasons to try the current setup.
The main problem, regardless of when "next freq size" kicks in, is not so much when it rises to that level, but when it drops below it.
Scenario:
- Say there's 11 ships @ freq size 2, and freq size 3 is available when the population reaches 12.
- I enter, and the freq size increases to 3. I join with t00z and Turbotron, and of course pwn the zone due to us being the only ships that don't lag.
- Everybody else 3's up, but are no match for our panic reps, violent speech and schizophrenia.
- One by one, people give up because they can't kill us, and spec to pitch hate from beyond the boundary line.
- Soon there's us three, and Axe, left. A four-ship population, with three on one freq.
- Totally unfair, although you may eventually err and one of us might get you.
This scenario occurs no matter what the freq-size increase setting is. When pop goes up, you can team up. When pop goes down, there's no way to force a team to split "down".
How is that approached? Two ways : voluntarily, or by force.
1. Voluntarily - Awesome, but don't rely upon it. Some players will refuse to split up because a) they have a streak/bounty and don't want to lose it through a freq-change , or b ) they prefer to enjoy the advantage a big freq in a little population has. Ask, by all means, but you won't always be pleased with the response.
2. By force - Awesome, but how?
2a. When freq size drops, the bot can automatically split players off an oversized freq. Err, which one will it choose? The last to join? The first alphabetically? Regardless, a player forced off a freq would have the right to ask "why me and not that **** over there?"
2b. After freq size drops, the bot can check for deaths and split an oversized freq by changing out a player who just died. BUT, when they are a 3-ship turret in a four-player zone, like say a specialist turret such as Gad or Blackers, they are likely to survive a long time, and the damage we are talking about, will be done long before the change kicks into action.
2c. After freq size drops, the bot can wait for a player to go to safety and change them out. BUT, see 2b, as maybe they won't feel the need to go to safe until the damage is done. Even if they did go to safe soon after, if they are turretting, they will all hit safe at the same time, and from hence please refer 2a.
2d. After freq size drops, a timer warning can be applied to freqs that are over the new limit. A thirty-second timer can perhaps be available for a player to change freqs without losing bounty/streak/etc. This might be impossible in a coding sense, though, and I'm sure there's pitfalls with it, that I have overlooked, but it's what I would lean towards.
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Some good points and an easy solution <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' /> when the zone drops to 1 team the team limit kicks in bases on total zone population.
I am a fan of the no teams till 6 people myself and self limit teams unless someone asks for it. Through deserving a thumping or asking for the practice. I don't mind doing some 4v1 practice. Don't fear the Gad turret! i will kill it for ya just use your reps wisely and help someone else with their kill shot.
Old days it seemed just to be random for who got kicked off the freq and i was surprised when it didn't happen when i saw one bigger team remain.
...Axe
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12-30-2011, 12:14 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-30-2011, 12:22 PM by Nude For Satan.)
But which one? Which player?
To be honest I think it used to be "no teams til 6 players" until not too long ago, when problems with people keeping multiplayer freqs pretty much drove the change.
While imperfect, it's definitely better than it was.
I'm now wondering, should btys and streaks REMAIN with a ship that freqchanges SO LONG AS that change is done from a safe zone?
(otherwise players will freq change merely to avoid an impending death)
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12-30-2011, 06:39 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-30-2011, 06:41 PM by hallucination.)
I split this off into it's own topic, as it's something quite separate from Calling Out Coords, and has much more merit. I'll add a little more info:
1) People have never been forced off freqs. I considered and rejected it in the first implementation of dynamic freqsizes back in 1999.
2) I've always thought that forcing people off would be incredibly messy (as demonstrated by the scenarios above), and just end up making people mad. I have yet to think of/hear an idea where that wouldn't be the case. In general, people do not like to be forced/selected to do something that is not their own choice. This is a game, and for fun.
3) About current freq size switch points and the relationship with green settings:
During SVS weekend last spring, I noticed an increase in teamwork. Freq size was fixed at 6. Of course, the same problems that spurred me to create dynamic freqsizes in the first place were present during low populations (very unequal teams; huge disincentive to start a new freq of others were full). But between larger freqsizes and lower starting bty (30), there was more team play. We'd often see 6v6.
(Side note: FYI, overall, population did not go up during SVS weekend -- it was extremely similar to the surrounding weeks(just some diff ppl were there -- it was a nice change of pace))
Teamwork and squad play was a critical part of the glory days of Chaos imo. I've been hoping to reignite more squad v squad play and competition since my return -- foremost with work it took to bring back squad stats -- but we have yet to see any Chaos squad consistently utilize swarming, the most powerful and most challenging way to play, as a strategy to dominate the zone as we constantly saw in the old days. 4v4 was born out of these Chaos zone squad rivalries -- one swarm against another; just move it to a solo arena. Pro players still do swarm in Chaos, and yes, they completely dominate when they do it. I was hoping that league squads would take each other on in Chaos -- but they mostly avoid engaging each other, and go after the weaker fish.
People have forgotten these play patterns though, and most current Chaos players have a solo mindset...
So, with my persistent hope to respark more squad play (which would lead to recruitment, and bring in new players to the zone), I ran a number of experiments to see if something could be done to encourage more team play. One of the first was to make the minimum freqsize be 3. I also experimented extensively with changing the dynamic green settings, as the low bty start necessitates team greening to a much larger extent. I enhanced the dynamic settings to tweak more variables, and do so at a fine grain of detail.
When I tried lowering green settings to force more team greening, there were many, many complaints about too few greens, even though the number of greens available and the starting bty were much less severe than SVS. I am data driven though, and I kept the changes in long enough to see if the contingency would take hold, and people would realize that team play was the way to go, people would start to get more serious about forming squads and working together, and thereby population would increase. Basically, it didn't happen -- population remained flat, but also, I saw none of the precursor steps of increased team play, and squad oriented play and thinking.
I slowly increased green settings to what they were previously (still had complaints) and then to even more than before (long story about how I made that possible without breaking several aspects of the game design). The complaints stopped, but more interesting was that population went up somewhat.
At the same time, I slightly tweaked the freqsize switch points to try and achieve fewer scenarios where we'd get uneven freqs (like 4v2v2v1v1v1)
4) I have long thought about trying to implement a version where the freqsize does not drop until there are no freqs of the larger size (as Axe mentioned in his first post). This seems fair to me.
5) The upside of a min freqsize of 3 is that people get to choose how they play. Yes, there are the jerks that keep a 3v1, or even worse, keep a 3 pilot freq when no one else is in, ready to drive any single player from the zone if they try to play. Thankfully these are few. With the current setting, 6 ppl can choose to be 1v1v1v1v1v1 or 2v2v2 or 3v3, or 2v2v1v1. That option to choose is kind of nice (people like the freedom to choose), especially if you are trying to help a newb get started here.
6) The option of having #4 above + lower freq sizes (as in prev implementations) could work. I'm not sure that a forced size of 1 is the best thing though. Everyone on a solo freq never feels like Chaos to me -- Chaos is teams, swarms, turrets, _and_ solo pilots.
7) Axe -- why 4 min instead of 3? 4v1 is distinctly worse than 3v1 imo, and we'd see definitely see the jerks pulling that stuff.
8) I do miss big 6+ pilot turrets. Dyn freq sizes do go up to 10, if we get enough people. We have achieved 6 pilot freqs in the last year, but it's been rare.
--hallu
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Anyone interested should also check out previous discussion on green settings and freq sizes and interrelated issues on other threads on the board. E.g.
[url="http://www.subspace.co/topic/25734-svs-2003-settings-this-reset-more"]http://www.subspace.co/topic/25734-svs-2003-settings-this-reset-more[/url]
[url="http://www.subspace.co/topic/25707-svs-settings-thread/"]http://www.subspace.co/topic/25707-svs-settings-thread/[/url]
[url="http://www.subspace.co/topic/25703-vie-old-school-weekend/"]http://www.subspace.co/topic/25703-vie-old-school-weekend/[/url]
[url="http://www.subspace.co/topic/25620-the-need-to-change-greening-now-how-to-keep-new-players/"]http://www.subspace.co/topic/25620-the-need-to-change-greening-now-how-to-keep-new-players/[/url]
--hallu
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Heya Hallu just clearing the cobwebs and always appreciate your thoughts on these matters. That being said i'll give the quick response the item #4. The reason i think 4 is better than 3 is that if a team wants to be evil they will be evil. There is a 4v4 League and that way is a group wanted to practice 4v4 domination they would be able to do it. So that way a group could practice there 4v4 skills at any time. The defense to that is the hide and strike or other teams forming to beat back the hordes. Now a squad like RG!! would of course self monitor allowing skills to form or attack someone who needs it 4v4 <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
And for me at least if a team wanted to attack me 24 v 1 I'd be willing to take it <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
with a no team limit restriction any scenario becomes possible but that as they say is another topic.
Thanks everyone for playing and thanks to Hallu/Pollix/Pritk/Mods/4v4 League
and even those I yell at for stealing players from Chaos! to play 3v3 dueling and 2v2
Keeping playing and may all your dreams be GREEN.
Happy New Year All.
...Axe
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[quote name='Axe Demento' timestamp='1325333197' post='280372']
...The reason i think 4 is better than 3 is that if a team wants to be evil they will be evil. There is a 4v4 League and that way is a group wanted to practice 4v4 domination they would be able to do it. So that way a group could practice there 4v4 skills at any time. The defense to that is the hide and strike or other teams forming to beat back the hordes. Now a squad like RG!! would of course self monitor allowing skills to form or attack someone who needs it 4v4 <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
Happy New Year All.
...Axe
[/quote]
Happy New Year Axe/All!
I'm loving the passion and brainwork in this thread.
On this specific point, Axe, I'm not sure I envision that a 4v4 squad has much more incentive to visit CZ if minimum freqs are set at 4 (as opposed to 3).
From my experience, whenever my past 4v4 squads have wanted league practice, we'd definitely stick to the 4v4 arenas. Although, to your point, there is more activity in CZ today than in those arenas, which are now often empty...
If we were waiting for a prac to start, hanging around or just catching our breath - we might come to CZ to let off steam. But this could be any combination of pilots, 5/6 as readily as 4, so we'd usually split up to different freqs as necessary.
Just my two-penny, gray-haired perspective on a small bit of a larger conversion <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
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crazy idea to get more serious squad play and collaboration:
always alow squad members to join the same freq regardless of population.
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Heheh some squads would have some fun with that <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' /> but then it would be an army!
I was also thinking the more people on your freq the lower starting bounty could be fun.
I would like to see based on the populations as of late....
1. I'd love min 4 player freqs. This only works if you have a few people that are willing to protect people that are new. Otherwise no teams till 5 players.
Then 3 player freqs till 10 players
or
3player always allowed
4 player at 15
5 at 20
6 at 25
7 at 30
8 at 40
Nice easy numbers to hope for with reward being larger teams allowed or larger turret levels.
If bonus's were easier to program implement having a !teamup bonus raising the freq size would be cool.
Is there any way to change from spec to a ship without being dropped from your freq?
I ask this is then you could have some of the spec players stay on a team without dropping out. Sure it would allow someone to hold a spot on a team perhaps keeping it larger but if someone is willing to put in that effort would be great. hopefully this is a zone choice not a hard coded effect.
and as i'm craming stuff into the freq size thread? how about those 2 1/2 hour safety times? that way i could head out to a restaurant/movie and keep my bounty <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' /> its still not enough for the average person to come back from work or sleep but it would be nice for me.
So i guess 9 hour safezone is my new wish! <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
...Axe
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Hell Hallu if you check this whats you decision about the freq sizes etc? How is Hallu-bot doing i know he was trying!
...Axe
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