SVS settings thread

[hallucination]

This is an open thread to discuss thoughts about the 1998 SVS settings. A couple of days isn't long enough to really see the consequences of having them in, but it's enough to get a feeling about them.



When I first took over the zone, the first thing I did was go back to these SVS settings, and work from there. I am now tempted to do something similar and go back to the settings (including bot settings) I had when I left (in 2003-4) and go from there again (which were very close to SVS settings).



People have mentioned the amount greens -- thereby rediscovering why Chaos-Bot was originally built -- to dynamically change freqsizes and green settings specifically to help low population situations smoothly transfer to higher pops. Those numbers were juiced up quite a bit after I left -- I think they need reexamining.



The biggest thing I noticed was the 30 bty start + not 100% ?status + larger freqsizes. These factors have a huge impact on team play. When you spawn, everyone needs to green -- and you need your teammates to help you green quickly or you risk dying. This means that team play is much more important overall -- everyone helps everyone. I've thought for a long time that squad culture needs to be revived in whatever ways possible -- the critical importance of team greening has been a missing component that we used to have here. This point would argue against freqsizes ever being 1.



What did you all think?



--hallu

[Jenn_B]

I like SVS, I wish I had been home more this weekend to really play. One bad thing I did notice last night when I was trying to play, there were only 2 teams and one was a turret. You either had to chase the turret all over the map or have nothing to shoot at. I LIKE turreting, and this still made me not want to play. This is probably the reason there were freq limits implemented. Though, I'd still rather have teams than to start full and be by myself. Maybe limit freqs but not to one player? As for greening, I green a lot anyway just out of habit, but it was nice to have the whole team helping out. Love that the shark cloaked again, just doesn't seem right that it doesn't. I say keep the settings as close to SVS as possible but give the lance double bounce bombs again! <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blum.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='8)' />



I have mixed feelings about not seeing player toys and energy while in spec, kind of a plus if you're on the turret, not so good if you're hunting.

[Gadianton]

I LOVED the settings over the weekend and i died a ton so people were happy and cheering.



i liked going to a private freq, and grabbing two gunners and then fighting big 6 man freqs.



at times over the weekend it was a 6 man turret vs a 6 man swarm. good times.



Another thought on freq size. For years building a squad has been a pain for the reason that you could only ever get 2-4 squad members ever on one team. freq limits are typically 2-4. With the classic settings a squad could be built really fast because everyone (or most members) from the squad could get on the same freq.



i agree with Jen that the lance needs 2 bounces to be worth playing.



More greens would be nice. It does take a long time to green before you can play.

[NuB KiNG]

1 mine per ship

and nerf a bit the shark

[Jenn_B]

[quote name='Gadianton' timestamp='1302546313' post='274598']

Another thought on freq size. For years building a squad has been a pain for the reason that you could only ever get 2-4 squad members ever on one team. freq limits are typically 2-4. With the classic settings a squad could be built really fast because everyone (or most members) from the squad could get on the same freq.

[/quote]



People who feel like they're part of something are more likely to return. If we could get every new player on a squad they might keep playing. I know I played in the beginning mostly because of this. There was nothing better than swarming with a group of people so much that you had a rhythm together. Plus more squads could revive league.



Just gotta find new players...

[Caerbannog]

[quote name='Gadianton' timestamp='1302546313' post='274598']

I LOVED the settings over the weekend and i died a ton so people were happy and cheering.



i liked going to a private freq, and grabbing two gunners and then fighting big 6 man freqs.



at times over the weekend it was a 6 man turret vs a 6 man swarm. good times.



Another thought on freq size. For years building a squad has been a pain for the reason that you could only ever get 2-4 squad members ever on one team. freq limits are typically 2-4. With the classic settings a squad could be built really fast because everyone (or most members) from the squad could get on the same freq.



i agree with Jen that the lance needs 2 bounces to be worth playing.



More greens would be nice. It does take a long time to green before you can play.

[/quote]



I didn't see you make a turret while down players at any time.

You had a 3 man turret when other freqs had 2 players on them.



Lancs are fine with just one bounce.

---

Related to the thread as a whole; I prefer fixed bullet damages to the random up to 300 damages.

Dunno about building squads. Yes, bigger freqs at all times _might_ help for that. It can also turn on you, SkyRakers got too big, most players in the arena were your squadmates, and generally shooting at one another was frowned upon. Also I do not know where all these people you would get for your squad would be coming from.



Some sort of a dynamic setting would still be the best imo, the real SVS settings are too punishing with low pop.



If the settings are closer to 2011 settings, I'd still keep the freq sizes lower for a longer time, just so there's more chaos since even the 50 bty ships you spawn with are good enough to fight with.

[PsyOps]

My feelings on svs settings are: !!awesomeness!!. Keep it on a permanent basis with 2 exceptions(maybe 3).



Greens- I don't think that the programmers for ss ever figured out how to balance greens with zone settings. i myself have played with the settings and it is just impossible to do so without a bot. This brings me to freq changes. These 2 can go hand in hand. My suggestion for freqs is this: Do not fall below 3 ppl per freq and you should be able to meet both parties in the middle. Gad and friends like to stick together, and 1 per team takes the fun out of it for players like them. Now others would like to keep huge freqs from forming too early on (like jenn suggested). I think 3 min can make both parties happy and keep a nice balance. (more greens per low pop. Freq limiter with min of 3)



I don't know what the settings for random are now, but I say no random direction for shrap and no random damage set for bullets/shrap.



These are the only changes i suggest making. (I did like the 2bounce lancy bombs though)



The more changes you make now, the higher the risk you run of being in the same situation you are now.(too many ppl unhappy)



My 2 cents.

[Yupa]

It was great, and because I was busy a lot over the weekend I only had a couple hours Sunday night to enjoy it, which meant a low pop, and it was still great. The one, the only, the immortal Chaos.

[Gadianton]

2 thoughts



1. The random damage kills me a ton but i still like it. I really like the random shrap as well. The zone is called chaos after all. I would like a good newbie help file explaining random damage.



2. People have played so many years with the current settings i would love to see some good documentation explaining all of the differences between the 2011 and SVS 98 settings. I know the "pro" players know it all, however there is a ton that i don't know. For example playing Saturday i noticed that the reps were stronger. It would be nice to see the 2011 settings the reps were 950, and the svs98 settings the reps are 1200 and then explaining that the svs reps are 22% stronger.

[Nude For Satan]

I had a ball. There's quite a difference, hey. The big freq swarms and turrets were pretty awesome.



Samgunn suggested earlier that we have settings like this, but have the green rate increase proportional to the player numbers dropping. I think that would be worth looking at. I found that during quiet hours it was quietER, during busy hours it was busiER.



Bigger freqs must be better for new players who peek in too. When you're on your own and totally new it must be pretty disconcerting. But there was a healthy level of protecting other yellow ships and unspoken swarm congregation.



Then there's the turrets. They were a beauty to behold. I saw a 2-person Gad turret float by and, as is my wont, felt the need to chase it, then a 6-person turret rocketed between us and I had a moral dilemma on my hands ... or is it immoral!?



Copping downgrade greens was duel-changing but it felt a lot as though people accepted them as part of the game, growled, then laughed, then got on with it. Yesterday I spawned with red bombs and my first green took them away!



The old settings aren't for everyone, and they aren't perfect. But they feel more true-to-the-game, and I just played a few minutes ago back on 2011 settings feeling that I had learnt more in one weekend than I'd learnt over years preceeding. My record was no better, it was actually about the same w/l, but it just felt more like the real deal.



I like them. With some tweaking, I think original settings are more fun than current.



[quote name='Gadianton' timestamp='1302558821' post='274610']

2. People have played so many years with the current settings i would love to see some good documentation explaining all of the differences between the 2011 and SVS 98 settings. I know the "pro" players know it all, however there is a ton that i don't know. For example playing Saturday i noticed that the reps were stronger. It would be nice to see the 2011 settings the reps were 950, and the svs98 settings the reps are 1200 and then explaining that the svs reps are 22% stronger.

[/quote]



I noticed rockets were faster. That's one thing I can tell you.

[samgunn]

I like the SVS settings, i vote for leaving them the same and just tweaking them for low pop, up the number of greens as pop goes down.



every thing else was good, people were valuing what they had greened up and would stay in a group of yellow friends for protection, noticed fellow yellows would come to your help if you were in trouble and running hard.



there was the lovely sight of a very large turrent falling apart when its driver got nailed and everyone one jumping on the gunners before they could remember how to use there arrow keys.



some of the people who i thought have been cheating, were dyeing and even more were not flying around like they were invulnerable they would turn and run.



i never like the double bounce on the lance, i like bouncing it around a corner and knowing it will then explode.



samgunn

[Jenn_B]

[quote name='Nude For Satan' timestamp='1302559489' post='274611']

Yesterday I spawned with red bombs and my first green took them away!

[/quote]

Lol

[Ethylene!]

It's clear that the retail settings of Subspace are the best settings to have in the game. The current 2011 settings are terrible, I think I was repped 7 times in less than 2 minutes by one player and the full charge greens are everywhere. Put the 1998 settings in for good and stop ruining the game by have these terrible 2011 settings. All I hear are good things about 1998 SVS settings, why ignore such an obvious desire of the players?

[a tool]

my god. actual random shrap? i was saddened when league's fixed 8-point shrap became a pub setting. sure, random shrap made you die a LOT, but it taught you to (sort of) not shoot in the red quite so much. one of the major flaws was mine stacks with random shrap. good god that would hurt.



possibly limit mines to 2 or 3 per player, or max of 8 per freq. on a fully greened ship, not shooting and slamming into three mines, it'll more than likely kill you straight up. if not, REALLY damage you. then that shrap or bullet from wherever will finish the job. one person could easily minerep a 6man stack and cash in.



one bounce for a lanc bomb is plenty. it gets silly when you have linebombers in the pipe. or rocketing limebombers.





IMA SPREAD THIS WORD.

[Jazz]

I love random shrap ..... ok maybe not 'love' it, because it seems to kill me when i cant predict where to stand when i hit a mine or bomb



I also like the idea of random damage from bullets too .... which makes it more challenging in a way because youre not sure how many bullets you can actually take <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> And in a way, it seems more realistic. Its as if some hits are more critical than others ! <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/good.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />







The biggest problem was the low number of greens. They were pretty hard to find, which means you really valued them <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> .... but the difficulty was trying to find them when the population was low. Then you might have a high bounty (or even a turret) chasing after you, and you have no SPEED, or RECHARGE, or ENERGY, or guns or anything and you cant even find greens <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />







I did find more teamwork ..... but as mentioned, with few freqs of larger numbers, you may end up with one large turret, and no choice but to chase a turret or leave.



The lancaster i think is better with just one bounce. I think it actually required SOME amount of skill to use. It gets ridiculous and requires no skill when someone can just fly around lobbing lanc bombs that just bounce everywhere, and its even dumber when its used for line bombing.

The shark, i havent tried it much, but do people prefer it with the cloak and extra energy ....... or do they prefer the rapid guns ? Because it definitely shouldnt have both. Its crazy enough as it is with the rapid guns !! <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />





BTW ...... NO BONUSES = <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/good.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':drinks:' /> <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/good.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':good:' /> <img src='http://www.subspace.co/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/good.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':good:' />

[hallucination]

[size="2"][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"]Edit: discussion moved to new thread:[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

[size="2"][url="http://forums.ssgn.net/topic/25734-svs-2003-settings-this-reset-more/"]http://forums.ssgn.net/topic/25734-svs-2003-settings-this-reset-more/[/url][/size]





[size="2"][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"] [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][size="2"]

Quote:[/size][size="2"]The SVS weekend event/test run brought up many interesting factors, including:[/size][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"]

Lower bty start and less than perfect ships encouraged team play via team greening.

Larger freqsizes encouraged more team play and swarming.

Fewer greens meant people fought over those available.



Anything that emphasizes team play in Chaos is good.



The settings changes we made to SVS while I ran the zone in the early 2000s did not affect game play in a huge way. Chaos-bot was created to try and deal with the occasional low population scenarios of too few greens, and too many people on a single freq chasing out all the other people.



Here are the other changes to SVS CD settings [and my assessment of the play impact]:

--wb rot at 290 to match league [almost negligible]

--all ships at 18 thrust (to match league) except wb (19) and jav (17) [minor but good releveling of ship strength]

--burst dmg at 350 instead of the insane 515 (appeared that only one person noticed that the bursts were super powerful with the SVS settings) [affected tunnel rats most]

--bullets -- exact damage + 212 dmg at lvl3 bullets (matching league) -- (some ppl noticed this) [major change, but one that is critical to allow league players meaningful practice in Chaos]

--lower % of 'luck' greens: super, warp, engine shutdown [the greens we had consistent, major complaints about]

--repel speed and time to match league (4200 v 5000; 295 v 225) [minor but does affect things, again to allow league players prac]

--rocket speed to match league (4500 v 5000) [intermediate effect, again to allow league players to prac][/size][/size]

[size="2"][size="2"]--single rabbit flag w/upgrades



Things retained from 2011 settings:

--the shark -- the SVS shark was designed by marketing people (not Jeff/Rod) and not user tested *at all*. It killed the spider. If the spider needs to be stronger, let's address that rather than replacing it.



Greens & Freqsizes:

Even though Chaos-Bot was extremely successful at raising the population when first deployed in 1999, it was designed for a higher overall population. My observations over the weekend have lead me to slightly rethink the speed with which larger freqs appear and the green distribution pattern. I've run some tests on some revised settings for Chaos-Bot to change the freqsizes and green settings (in fact, with a new algorithm to calc some of the settings), and will deploy them for this Reset and continue to observe how they play out in the all the extremely variable circumstances possible in the zone. Please give feedback (e.g. "too few greens w/6 ppl playing"; "greens too tightly spaced around the center w/8 ppl"; "I came in and there was a 4 person freq turreting and chasing everyone out"; etc.)



Bonuses:

I agree with many people here (the 'no bonus' sentiment) -- I do not like bonuses that materially affect game play -- i.e. buying toys in the middle of fighting. Expect to see this continue to be changed or eliminated in the future. For this Reset, we'll go ahead with the previously announced trial of the new bonus prices, and the restriction to only redeem bonuses when in safe.[/size][/size]

[size="2"][size="2"][url="http://forums.ssgn.net/topic/25652-prospective-changes-to-the-bonus-system/page__view__findpost__p__274386"]http://forums.ssgn.n...post__p__274386[/url][/size][/size]



[size="2"][size="2"]Please keep in mind that nothing here, or in life, is permanent. Constructive feedback welcome.[/size][/size]



[size="2"][size="2"]--hallu[/size][/size][/size][size="2"][size="2"][size="2"]

[/size][/size][/size]

[Yupa]

Undoubtedly this miscegenation will be even more offensive than the previous corrupted version.



I didn't have any trouble playing spider in 1997, it was great fun.

What lunatic decided to make league settings differ from standard?