An idea for a new kind of game play concerning Repels.

[mindriot]

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<div>So, lately I have noticed an excessive use of offensive reps. People will use whatever they can to their advantage, however, it's painfully annoying and feels a bit "dirty".</div>
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<div>Also, the PB Thor Big Bee attack. As much as I love killing someone with this move, I feel it is unfair because the pilot using it generally does not suffer the consequence of the PB.</div>
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<div>My solution to these realities is below:</div>
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<div>What if:</div>
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<div>-Every player starts out the game with 0 repels.</div>
<div>-There is a set amount of 12 Repel's per game total represented by every pilot's death. Essentialy, when you die, your green leaves a repel. Two teams fight and gain Repel advantage through kills. This gives the green prize a new dimension as the player with repels can be used tactically and forces pilots to use Repels responsibly. This would eliminate the reckless use of repels in offensive rep kills and would essentially eradicate repel death's altogether as Repels would become precious. I think this would add a Capture The Flag dimension to games and matches as well as force pilots to raise the level of their skill.</div>
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<div>-Reintroduce self kills for PB thor moves. This would prevent people from using this move unless they were planning to kill themselves as well.</div>
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<div>Thoughts/Ideas?</div>

[develop]

Offensive repels still use repels, leaving you more vulnerable should you need one defensively down the line. You will see them rarely used in league as items are supposed to be used more efficiently and conservatively. PB thors do damage to the person using them, and all it takes is one bullet or shrap to backfire - or someone PB thoring you after you PB thored and failed. With both offensive reps and PB thors, the game is more dynamic, and IMO more fun. Don't fix things if they're not broken, just learn to adapt.

[mindriot]

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Offensive repels still use repels, leaving you more vulnerable should you need one defensively down the line. You will see them rarely used in league as items are supposed to be used more efficiently and conservatively. PB thors do damage to the person using them, and all it takes is one bullet or shrap to backfire - or someone PB thoring you after you PB thored and failed. With both offensive reps and PB thors, the game is more dynamic, and IMO more fun. Don't fix things if they're not broken, just learn to adapt.

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I am merely looking for alternative game play where skill is placed at the forefront and "luck" is eliminated as much as possible.

[Crescendo]

Ok so this is not exactly the same as riots idea, but what about `kill confirmed' for 4v4?


Basically in Call of Duty, there's a game mode called kill confirmed where after each death there's a token that needs to be collected for the kill to count. If the enemy team collects the token they get points, or if a teammate collects it first they deny the kill. Should be fun?


Also riot reps are part of the game so are pb thors, dev basically explained it. There's a risk with using an offensive rep (could be wasted). Pilot's can also use their awareness to avoid those kind of deaths. There's no luck to it, it takes skill to pb thor and offensive rep well.

[Street]

I don't understand the people that want to remove repels or mines or whatever. Anything you remove just takes away strategy from this game. Well, except PB thor.. 

 

Anyways, if you want to have fun, I suggest have inversed repels one day in a week in all prac arenas. I.e. using repel brings your opponent closer to you (here will be the true offensive repelling)

[develop]

Offensive repping takes more skill than what the majority of bad and mediocre players do, and that's spray and pray. If you want to follow this logic stream where offensive reps and PB thors take no skill, you might as well lobby for a function that requires you press ctrl each time you want to shoot a bullet as opposed to holding it down. By the time you're at the end of this slippery slope, you're stuck in a duelbox with no mines and toys, and instead of a 4v4 you're 1v1 1v1 1v1 1v1.

 

The bottomline is if more people could PB thor win, and offensive rep effectively, they'd be doing it. When I see someone offensive rep effectively, more times than not, it is by a top tier player. I rarely see someone below this tier able to do it in a 4v4 match with positive results. Same thing with PB thors - I notice only exceptional players able to pull this off consistently. Once you've seen how either of these are done, and know how they're executed, they're easier to avoid. Taking these things out, just like Street said, just takes away more strategy from the game.

[shikaa]

I don't find 4v4 particularly fun, and its been a long time since I did (at least 10 years).  It is just happens to be the last piece of regular spaceships still alive.  For some reason, I do still like spaceships, although that is waning at this point.

 

The majority of practices are mismatches.  Even among those that are reasonable, someone is dumb / not paying attention / or just bad often (I'm as guilty of this as anyone).  This generally leads to a slot being out fairly quickly in anything but fairly close match ups.

 

I don't find the game particularly fun chasing opponents in a 4v3, 4v2, 4v1 situation.  I don't find the game particularly fun being chased 1v4, 2v4, 3v4.  Probably the biggest change that would make the game more fun (to me) would be to do away with the 3 lives and a slot is out mechanic.  If it isn't removed, I'd honestly prefer games to just be auto-ended whenever the first slot dies out.  I don't think either is or ever was particularly popular.

 

That aside, I think every ship setting change done in the last 17 years was terrible.  Continuum proximity is still terrible.  I'm OK with map changes.  Latency/packet loss limits should be as low as possible without reducing the playing population further.

[shikaa]

<div>I'd generally be in favor of keeping repels.  I would be in favor of self kills being brought back though, pb thor should only be usable if willing to sacrifice self or have enough energy to take it.</div>
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<div>The biggest annoyance to me with repels is player latency. </div>
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<div>When a player gets repelled, the continuum client appears to try to do some kind of interpolation of the location on the enemies screen where they saw themselves repel you, and the location you are on your screen when you receive the repel packet and actually see the repel on your screen.  This leaves the exact vector a player is actually going to take after being repelled as not quite determinate.  It can be estimated accurately enough for the game mechanic to not be considered broken. The continuum client also likes to do a split second hop between these potential paths when this happens. </div>
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<div>While there are also latency issues with bullet/bomb timing to appear on a players screen, once it has, the damage you take is determinate.  There are other issues here, it isn't particularly hard to exploit latency to make bullets/bombs that don't hit you on your screen, appear to hit you on other players screens to misrepresent your energy to those players.</div>
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<div>On the defensive side, my main annoyance, would be having to compensate for the opposing players latency when figuring the latest timing you have to repel safely.  The last safe time to repel is consistently earlier against higher latency players (and goes up with your own latency as well).  This aspect would be fine if we all had < 10ms connections, but that is not feasible.</div>

[7th]

I think that Offensive Repels and PB thors require skill.  There is an aspect where defensive repels lead to kills and can be considered lucky, but most of the time these deaths can be avoided if you have a good subspace awareness.  

 

If we ended up removing Items, I would only limit teams to 1 repel 2 rockets and keep the other items, but this probably wouldn't happen.  

 

The idea about not having 3 lives each, but 12 lives as a frequency has been tried before.  The games were just strange, especially in practices.  People can abuse it way to much amd die 8 times in one slot, which is still not helpful.  IF we ever did do something like this, there would have to be a cap placed on each slot, lets say 4 deaths.  I still am opposed to any of this.  

[Captor]

change to 12 lives - I think it would create more teams and make pracs/matches longer. Would it be good/ Bad? I vote for it. 4v4 is always fun when games/prac is 4v4, not 4v3 or above.

 

pb thors - im not sure if i Like them, but once i saw ppl doing it, i started too.

 

Offencive or defensive repel

repeling for your teammate, is even harder to do than use repel to throw ships to bombs/bullets. You have to practice on those in pracs and use those skills in a league game in a matter of seconds effectively. I think that's one true skill meter if this game vs between a good and an average player.

 

Removing any item is Bad, Like almost everyone agreed, but making a death green spawn a repel/thor/rocket, it would be awesome as you would probably want to fight for it and green lasts what, a 20 seconds currently?

[Micloren]

Micloren/Mclaren here.

 

I have no issues with repels being used offensively.  This has been the case since the beginning of this game and brings fond memories of crawling out of a safe zone in warzone only to get repelled into mines by a cloaker that was waiting for my newbie self to fall for the trap.

 

However, i do feel PB thor kills to be more of an exploit of game mechanics than i do skill.  No doubt, it requires skill.  But, i remember on the old client death attaching through walls in warzone ... and that too required skill.  I also remembered that mines were stationary bombs. And exploiting that to lay as many mines as my heart desired... which also required skill.

 

It makes no sense to me that you can pb bomb yourself a million times over and never die.  But now (because i don't remember this being the case in the old client) you can do that a million times over ... fire a thor and kill the enemy next to you.  Going out on a limb here, but i think Jeff and Rod would of fixed that just like they did with stacked mines and many other things back in the day.  

 

My biggest reason for considering it more of an exploit is i've seen PB thors used in conjunction with lag many times.  Someone rockets in, gets in a gun duel, is about to die, but then shoots a thor.  Unfortunately for the guy about to die ... Mr. Rocketeer is now two inches away from him before the thor is actually received on his screen.  I've seen this to an even greater extent with mines.  Nothing like someone doing a fly by ... and is almost half a screen away before lag kicks in and blows you up because they laid a mine.

[treachen]

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I don't understand the people that want to remove repels or mines or whatever. Anything you remove just takes away strategy from this game. Well, except PB thor.. 

 

Anyways, if you want to have fun, I suggest have inversed repels one day in a week in all prac arenas. I.e. using repel brings your opponent closer to you (here will be the true offensive repelling)

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Street, you know inverse reps happen all the time as it is.

[Tunahead]

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I don't find the game particularly fun chasing opponents in a 4v3, 4v2, 4v1 situation.  I don't find the game particularly fun being chased 1v4, 2v4, 3v4.  Probably the biggest change that would make the game more fun (to me) would be to do away with the 3 lives and a slot is out mechanic.  If it isn't removed, I'd honestly prefer games to just be auto-ended whenever the first slot dies out.  I don't think either is or ever was particularly popular.

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I kind of like this idea. Although nothing beats a nice comeback from being a man down to win it, I think games would be a lot more fun if slots couldn't die out at all. I think the best way to do this, is to auto-end games when one team reaches 9 deaths. This would correspond to a slot inevitably die out as it is.

 

This change would make every prac and game fun until the very end.

[Tunahead]

To add to my previous post, I only see two real downsides in this:

 

1) Lowered nerve/mental factor as people would be less stressed about dying out (choking) and thus throwing the game and getting the blame.

 

2) Loss of the tactical element to try to kill out the weakest slot.

 

I don't think either of these two would make a huge impact though. Teams would still try to target the weakest link anyway, and less worrying of dying would mean more action and risks taken.

 

And as 7th stated above, yeah sure, people can abuse this and play carelessly and die out 9 times on one slot, which would make it frustrating to the rest of the team, but how is that different than people currently going 0-3 right away and ruining the game? Most pracs/games are over anyway once a slot dies out. The rest of it is usually just a waste of time and not even fun to spectate.

[mindriot]

Quote:<div>
To add to my previous post, I only see two real downsides in this:

 

1) Lowered nerve/mental factor as people would be less stressed about dying out (choking) and thus throwing the game and getting the blame.

 

2) Loss of the tactical element to try to kill out the weakest slot.

 

I don't think either of these two would make a huge impact though. Teams would still try to target the weakest link anyway, and less worrying of dying would mean more action and risks taken.

 

And as 7th stated above, yeah sure, people can abuse this and play carelessly and die out 9 times on one slot, which would make it frustrating to the rest of the team, but how is that different than people currently going 0-3 right away and ruining the game? Most pracs/games are over anyway once a slot dies out. The rest of it is usually just a waste of time and not even fun to spectate.

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Hey guys, I really like the idea of 9 or 12 death's as well, however, you raised some good points and I believe I have a solution.

 

1. Lowered / Mental Nerve Factor:

After the initial death or two, the pilot who keeps dying spawns with no items, or loses a Rep on his second life, and has no reps on his 3rd life an onward.

 

That keeps the pressure on that pilot as he will become the target. The goal is to reach 9 or 12 death's and the pilot with no items is the most advantageous way to do it.

 

2. Tactical element:

 

Pretty much already addressed this in no.1. The weakest slot will be the empty ship.

[develop]

I'm pretty sure that if you change the dynamic of 4v4 to anything other than what it's been in the last decade or so, that the people that end up leaving would severely outweigh the minority that it would appease

[7th]

^

 

and 

 

we have already tried this before.  It failed.

[Gruntster]

yep

[gold teeth]

What about a slight tweak to the prac rules then? Previously on the bots I believe you could choose which 4v4 rules to play in (12 deaths per slot, etc).I personally think the first to 12 is better as the name of this game is 4v4 right?

 

Pros for current format:

- It is fun to win a 4v3, 4v2, 4v1 comeback

- It is what we have always played

 

Pros for first to 12

- Everyone stays in longer, giving newbies more of a chance.

- Each slot is less important than the overall teamwork.

 

The cons listed for first to 12 are typically:

 

- It is different

- Someone can ruin prac by suiciding over and over and ending game.

 

Addressing it is different:

 

- If we can choose to play/prac traditional 4v4 is it a problem? !ready 12 vs !ready

 

Addressing ruin prac:

 

Perhaps there is a way in pracs to mitigate the suiciders and allow even more people into pracs? Assemble a team of 4. Captain can !allowsub players. Once a slot has 3 deaths, the player is specced and the first allowsub is given 15 seconds to sub in before moving to the next person registered in !allowsub?

 

Beyond that a bad player will ruin your prac even harder if given only 3 lives to instantly die out in.

 

Not saying these are good ideas, just throwing them out there to get people thinking about ways to bring some new ideas in instead of just saying "X is bad. Never change."