are people happy with how .fullsub works?

[Odin]

So I've only been back for a couple months now and I have some observations.

First and most important.  I got put into a match and since I didn't know how fullsub works I ended up screwing up while subbing out.  Are people happy about this?  From what I understand fullsub has been an issue during multiple matches throughout the last few seasons and essentially people messing up.  The standard response is "you should know better" and I agree, but should it really be so complex?

Death subs should be fullsubs.  If a person subs out within 5 seconds of dying it should be treated as a deathsub and the incoming player gets full toys.  Deathsubs should be possible in OT with full toys, I'm not sure how the current rules treat them as subbing in OT is extremely rare.  

A fullsub should be the first non-deathsub.  

I know years go I argued that there should not be limits on when a fullsub can take place.  I think the allowed 30 minutes are stupid and also add complexity while taking away an element where a team could potentially use a fullsub in overtime.  I'm not sure why there was a limit put on when you can fullsub and again adds another complication to the game and being able to properly utilize the fullsub option.

Finally I have an additional comment regarding bot commands.  While it may seem like adding the feature to treat text like "rdy" and "ready" as commands without any pre-qualifiers as cool, it really isn't all that great.  It leads to statements like "pracstats are broken so don't use it" to register as a command to request pracstats.  All commands should be prefaced with either a "!" or a "."

My 2 c

[Street]

Well, !fullsub command has been here for years and I really don't see why it is hard to use for anyone. Your captain tells you you are a fullsub and you do !fullsub instead of !sub.

Death subs are fullsubs up to the point when all subs are burned (10 min left). It makes no sense for them to be fullsubs in OT and really the only situation you could make a death sub in OT is when you are up by i.e. 4-3 and then one of your guys dies to make it 4-4. Allowing a death-full sub here would only make it easier for the top teams imo.

If fullsub was the first non-death sub, it would take away a tactical aspect of the game. Up to a few weeks ago, Outlaws were good at subbing and they would save the fullsub for kril or KN even though they would make several non-death subs before that.

[Odin]

Street, your explanation of how fullsub works is incorrect. You're a captain too, so this farther highlights the problem.

The way fullsub currently works is that when a player is ready to sub out, the captain must specify his slot as a fullsub slot. Let me break it down for you:

1. A player needs to sub out or lags out
2. Before the sub gets in for that player's slot by having been !allowsub already and using the !sub # command, a captain must specify the slot of the player coming out by using the !fullsub command. Also note that all of this has to take place within the first 30 or 35 minutes of a match which could technically go well over 45 minutes.
3. Once the sub has been allowed, and the slot has been set as a fullsub slot, the incoming player can type !sub

In recent weeks I've seen two instances where people hit 0 reps and subed out with the incoming player typing !sub before the captain can specify !fullsub. I saw one instance of a lagout early in the game resulting in a burned sub, I think it may have been during that outlaws sterling game or something.

Anyways, I understand you're ok with the fullsub implementation, I just find it odd as to why people can be ok with it and against a much simpler implementation which also allows for more strategy.

The Deathsub should not even be a topic of discussion at all. As pointed out deathsubs in OT are extremely rare, but what if it happens? I'm not even sure how it's implemented but you cannot make an argument that a player must be burned after subbing a player shortly after a death.

[Street]

Hi Odin,

Yes, I was just talking from the perspective of the player who is subbing in. Of course the captain has to do the !fullsub command on the player who is subbing out.

However, if the fullsub is not properly performed, it is completely captain's fault. If he can tell a player to sub in, he can also first type the fullsub and then tell the player to sub in.

And if he doesn't know he should first type the fullsub command, how can he even be a captain of a team?

How does your much simpler implementation allow for more strategy? It forces the first non death sub to always be a fullsub. Where is strategy in that?

Also, what exactly in "all subs burned" don't you understand? The more fullsubs you allow, the easier it will be for the favourite team to win.

Do you want to completely remove the all subs burned function?

[Odin]

You can claim that you were talking about something, but the picture you described is not complete... hence it was wrong. Sub mistakes happen all the time and they do affect games. In my opinion if you're going to have subs then the rules should make it easy to sub and not put so many restrictions. When league started teams were allowed to sub any player, all 4, for full subs. This promoted stacking and hence was restricted to what I think is an ideal compromise of allowing 1 full sub. I don't know what the statistics are but I'd hazzard to guess that at least 20% of games have at least one lagout, which is where the fullsub function really comes in handy.

I understand perfectly what "all subs burned" means. What exactly do you think I don't understand? I disagree with it and think it is stupid.

If you can't see the strategy to holding on and not exercising your fullsub until Overtime you must be retarded.

[Street]

(11-21-2014, 11:20 PM)Odin Wrote:  I got put into a match and since I didn't know how fullsub works I ended up screwing up while subbing out. 

A fullsub should be the first non-deathsub.  

You are right, I am the retarded one here. How the hell do you screw up while subbing out?

[Plarep]

Don't use !allowsub until you are ready for the player to actually sub in.
Don't use !allowsub before !fullsub if you want it to be a full (non-death) sub.
I just type my commands in pubchat so everyone can see what I'm typing and point out if I typed something wrong. More importantly, this lets the player subbing in know when he can actually sub in.

I honestly can't remember the last time I messed up a sub. (No, the game where Sterling played whoever doesn't count, since we didn't have any more subs at that point.)

[Nude For Satan]

I have always been forced to do the !allowsubs at the start of the match as the teams I am associated with have players that can die three times between typing the ! and the b

In other words, typing it only when ready to perform the full sub is more appropriate for Pro teams than for Ammo ones.

[Plarep]

(11-23-2014, 08:39 AM)Nude For Satan Wrote:  I have always been forced to do the !allowsubs at the start of the match as the teams I am associated with have players that can die three times between typing the ! and the b

In other words, typing it only when ready to perform the full sub is more appropriate for Pro teams than for Ammo ones.

Tell them to spec first and then type !allowsub later. I don't really understand how it is possible to die as long as you run away from the enemies for the short time between the ! and the b. Now, the time spent for the subber to regroup with the rest of the team, that is a dangerous time where he can be isolated and attacked.

[Odin]

Glad you admitted it.  The player subbing out can't really screw up.  

Advice is being given out here because it is more complicated than it needs to be.  Anyways, since this would require approval by captains and actual work to recode the bots it's not worth pursuing it seems since I seem to be the only one who doesn't like the way it works.  

Carry on now.