Did Rage and 9-Volt+ abuse the rules?

[Rage161]

(12-04-2014, 07:18 PM)oldvet Wrote:  This is an interesting topic. The issue of someone running or not engaging after the prac is essentially over has been a frustration since 1996. While it's not against the rules to continue to play after you've basically lost, it is certainly dishonorable and selfish (I agree with Arctos here). 3 or 4 versus 1 is no longer a prac; it's an exercise in patience. By continuing to play, you were hoping the other team would get bored, impatient, and eventually suicide so that you could swindle them out of a win. Think of it like chess - when in a clear losing position the honorable thing to do is concede, instead of playing the game out or, even worse, letting your clock run out.

The solution to this problem: Once a prac becomes 3 or 4 versus 1 the bot should start a 2 minute timer (separate from the game clock). The game ends unless that 1 pilot can score a kill before the 2 minute timer runs out. If that 1 pilot is able to kill, the timer resets to 2 minutes. If a kill by that 1 pilot causes the game to become 2 versus 1, then the timer will no longer be used. Kills by the team in the lead do not reset the timer. The only exception to this should be if the game is tied (9-9 is the only possibility for this).

That said, the only one who broke an official rule was Rage. He has done this countless times and deserves the ban. Breaking the rules was not justified just because you disagreed with how Mindriot was playing. The community is already very small. Lawless behavior with no regard to the established rule set is cancerous and should not be tolerated.

The countless times equaling a grand total of twice including this infraction. I have no idea who you are, but taking a random shot at me has nothing to with the issue at hand. The issue is Mindriot decided he wanted to kill the arena for his own selfish agenda (which he did.) Sorry I shouldn't have subbed in, my entire team should have just speced and ended the game abusing the robot in an advantageous way like Mindriot has done in the past and admitted to in his own log. The whole situation is a joke, and if the shoe was on the other foot he would be whining about that also. Mindriot is a certified lunatic nothing more.

[mindriot]

(12-04-2014, 10:28 PM)Rage161 Wrote:  

(12-04-2014, 07:18 PM)oldvet Wrote:  This is an interesting topic. The issue of someone running or not engaging after the prac is essentially over has been a frustration since 1996. While it's not against the rules to continue to play after you've basically lost, it is certainly dishonorable and selfish (I agree with Arctos here). 3 or 4 versus 1 is no longer a prac; it's an exercise in patience. By continuing to play, you were hoping the other team would get bored, impatient, and eventually suicide so that you could swindle them out of a win. Think of it like chess - when in a clear losing position the honorable thing to do is concede, instead of playing the game out or, even worse, letting your clock run out.

The solution to this problem: Once a prac becomes 3 or 4 versus 1 the bot should start a 2 minute timer (separate from the game clock). The game ends unless that 1 pilot can score a kill before the 2 minute timer runs out. If that 1 pilot is able to kill, the timer resets to 2 minutes. If a kill by that 1 pilot causes the game to become 2 versus 1, then the timer will no longer be used. Kills by the team in the lead do not reset the timer. The only exception to this should be if the game is tied (9-9 is the only possibility for this).

That said, the only one who broke an official rule was Rage. He has done this countless times and deserves the ban. Breaking the rules was not justified just because you disagreed with how Mindriot was playing. The community is already very small. Lawless behavior with no regard to the established rule set is cancerous and should not be tolerated.

The countless times equaling a grand total of twice including this infraction.  I have no idea who you are, but taking a random shot at me has nothing to with the issue at hand.  The issue is Mindriot decided he wanted to kill the arena for his own selfish agenda (which he did.)  Sorry I shouldn't have subbed in, my entire team should have just speced and ended the game abusing the robot in an advantageous way like Mindriot has done in the past and admitted to in his own log.  The whole situation is a joke, and if the shoe was on the other foot he would be whining about that also.  Mindriot is a certified lunatic nothing more.

In reality, I specced with 2 other pilots against Seismic as he said: "Good luck trying to catch me." after ship changing into a Javelin. Not even remotely the same thing.

Secondly, I was not trying to kill the arena I was trying to win. I did not break any rules and scored 4 kills. I had a 5 game win streak and was not going to give up that easily. What killed the arena was the poor play of your team who couldn't kill me 3 on 1. If you cant kill a weasel 3 on 1 you probably deserve to lose. You cheated because you saw your win slipping away, nothing more. 

Finally, I respect the game, its players, and the staff. The shoe would never be on my foot because I don't wear the shoes of a cheater.

[Odin]

I'll speak my 2 cents, I actually think Mindriot was within his right to do what he's doing, there's nothing wrong with that. He's going for his prac points and it is good practice to run. Engaging was basically when we would spread out and someone would overfire mindriot would pick them off. The problem I have with the situation was that the game was over, riot had no chance of winning really, I had 3 lives left and as terrible as I am I honestly doubt Mindriot would kill me 3 times in a row. I can run too if it realy came to it and I cared to in a practice where there's people waiting. Most of the time I just spec if I don't want to take a death at the end and I'm not in the mood of actually dragging it out. Eventually I suicided for toys since my team was clearly determined to chase him all out rather than slowly grind him down and force him to attack. As the clock wind down it became obvious he wasn't trying to win by attacking but by us killingourselves chasing him. This situation simply cannot play out as it did in a real game. In the meantime I wanted to play more pracs and I think this kind of killed the arena.

Mindriot, a similar situation played out a few weeks ago against Assassins and you calling Mop a coward and a terrible player. The fact is that you're simply wasting time in situations like this and if you think that what you were doing is "engaging" you're lying to yourself.

Anyways, as I said, I support people actually trying to win pracs and you're fully within your right to do whatever you want and play the game as you like. I think it was pretty sad though and you clearly are emotionally unstable. Trying your heart out yet flipping out when people turn the clock on you? If the game was close and you had a legitimate reason to think you can actually win I'm all for you trying. This was not such a case though.

Rage knew this was bannable and I don't think he'll be fighting it. I frankly don't think that this should be a bannable offense though, especially if someone lags out and no subs are around. If the other team is ok with someone who already played subbing into a lagged out slot I don't understand why it's such a big deal.

Carry on now.

[mindriot]

(12-05-2014, 05:14 AM)Odin Wrote:  I'll speak my 2 cents, I actually think Mindriot was within his right to do what he's doing, there's nothing wrong with that.  He's going for his prac points and it is good practice to run.  Engaging was basically when we would spread out and someone would overfire mindriot would pick them off.  The problem I have with the situation was that the game was over, riot had no chance of winning really, I had 3 lives left and as terrible as I am I honestly doubt Mindriot would kill me 3 times in a row.  I can run too if it realy came to it and I cared to in a practice where there's people waiting.  Most of the time I just spec if I don't want to take a death at the end and I'm not in the mood of actually dragging it out.  Eventually I suicided for toys since my team was clearly determined to chase him all out rather than slowly grind him down and force him to attack.  As the clock wind down it became obvious he wasn't trying to win by attacking but by us killingourselves chasing him.  This situation simply cannot play out as it did in a real game.  In the meantime I wanted to play more pracs and I think this kind of killed the arena.  

Mindriot, a similar situation played out a few weeks ago against Assassins and you calling Mop a coward and a terrible player.  The fact is that you're simply wasting time in situations like this and if you think that what you were doing is "engaging" you're lying to yourself.  

Anyways, as I said, I support people actually trying to win pracs and you're fully within your right to do whatever you want and play the game as you like.  I think it was pretty sad though and you clearly are emotionally unstable.  Trying your heart out yet flipping out when people turn the clock on you?  If the game was close and you had a legitimate reason to think you can actually win I'm all for you trying.  This was not such a case though.

Rage knew this was bannable and I don't think he'll be fighting it.  I frankly don't think that this should be a bannable offense though, especially if someone lags out and no subs are around.  If the other team is ok with someone who already played subbing into a lagged out slot I don't understand why it's such a big deal.  

Carry on now.

Odin, I assure you that if you were to jump off a bridge, I would hardly follow. Your perception of what is and isn't winnable isn't up for debate here. 

Not exactly sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I wasn't trying to win when I was clearly picking you off 1 by 1 and sent one of your team mates to spec in a 3 on 1 situation.

The only stale mate situation occurred in the final minute when Rage subbed in and refused to attack after failing to kill me. If you recall, I was speaking in pub commenting on the fact that he had already died out.

I think it's ironic that the only two people that made personal attacks on me are you and Rage, coincidentally the two individuals who were on the same team that cheated.

In the first 5 minutes in the 3 on 1 you began insulting and name calling me, where is your belief in yourself as a pilot to kill a man 3 on 1? All you had to do was push but you resolved to sitting idly and insulting me, it's in the log in case you have a sudden case of amnesia. I don't think you have too much backbone if you gave up so easily, and you actually have the nerve for calling me emotionally unstable because I was playing a game by following the rules when your team clearly didn't. You are left with personal attacks as the facts have already been truthfully and clearly presented. I bite my thumb at you sir.

Of-course you don't see cheating as a big deal as you clearly benefited from it. What an earth shattering surprise.  

[Odin]

I had nothing to do with Rage subbing and if anything he was detrimental to my play. I was perfectly content to run the clock against you after it became obvious you thought this was rz and you had the last flag.

[mindriot]

(12-05-2014, 04:03 PM)Odin Wrote:  I had nothing to do with Rage subbing and if anything he was detrimental to my play. I was perfectly content to run the clock against you after it became obvious you thought this was rz and you had the last flag.

You are free to deceive yourself as you wish. Expecting a pilot to charge alone against 3 is asinine. You have no concept of tactics, reality, or facts. Try to improve your skills so that you can kill 1 weasel with 3 pilots, until then, stay amateur and jolly. 

[BlueGoku]

Not only is it common sense, but it's the decent thing to do to spec when you are 1v3. It's not a league game, the lost erating is negligible, and you were probably already above 0 on regular rating. I wasn't there, but based on the log it is pretty clear the arena was not going to survive a 1v3 runfest. Why not do the decent thing and spec?

As for the ban, obviously it wouldn't have come to that if you had manned up and sat so that you could (most likely) play another game at 4v4. In a dying game I have no idea why we are still banning people for a week at a time (especially coinciding with what is supposed to be a competitive league). This whole situation is dumb and childish.

[mindriot]

(12-05-2014, 05:55 PM)BlueGoku Wrote:  Not only is it common sense, but it's the decent thing to do to spec when you are 1v3. It's not a league game, the lost erating is negligible, and you were probably already above 0 on regular rating. I wasn't there, but based on the log it is pretty clear the arena was not going to survive a 1v3 runfest. Why not do the decent thing and spec?

As for the ban, obviously it wouldn't have come to that if you had manned up and sat so that you could (most likely) play another game at 4v4. In a dying game I have no idea why we are still banning people for a week at a time (especially coinciding with what is supposed to be a competitive league). This whole situation is dumb and childish.

I've seen many instances where a player won a 3 on 1 or a 4 on 1. When did it suddenly become "cool" to give up when you feel you can win? 

Winning a 3 on 1 or a 4 on 1 is the ultimate victory and makes this game even more fun to play. I was playing for myself and for my team, and to maintain our win streak. I earned every right to do so as we won 5 games before losing this one. You don't just let a streak go because someone deems it impossible, that is not the way of a warrior.

Once again, if you cannot trap and kill 1 pilot with 3, that is actively engaging and killing you 1 by 1, than you probably need to work on your skills.

I was in the same situation the other day, facing 2 pilots alone, one of which was saiyan... I lasted no more than 3 to 4 minutes. I'm sorry that Odin doesn't have the skills saiyan does but that does not mean I'm going to just give up for him.

Also, I find this whole arena killing argument silly. Our game occurred shortly after midnight if I am not mistaken, practice matches usually run to about 1:30am. Still plenty of players and time to play.

[Caerbannog]

"Rage knew this was bannable and I don't think he'll be fighting it. I frankly don't think that this should be a bannable offense though, especially if someone lags out and no subs are around. If the other team is ok with someone who already played subbing into a lagged out slot I don't understand why it's such a big deal. " -Odin a few posts up

People tend to never in report a practice where a 3 death person is "forced" to re-sub into the game, as that actually helps the prac. Even if they did, I doubt any bans would be placed. The rule exists to prevent abusive behavior, which was rather rampant at some point.

[Odin]

I'm coining a new verb: Mindrioting

Definition: the act of dragging out a practice in unwinnable situations and then losing ones mental faculties when the opponents choose to run the clock.

This term may also be used when terrible players are trying and caring their hearts out.

[mindriot]

(12-05-2014, 07:53 PM)Odin Wrote:  I'm coining a new verb: Mindrioting

Definition: the act of dragging out a practice in unwinnable situations and then losing ones mental faculties when the opponents choose to run the clock.

This term may also be used when terrible players are trying and caring their hearts out.

Reads like your feelings are hurt. There there. 

Have fun thinking about me with your word games! 

[Surrey]

I just read this entire stupid thread. Sadly, I was forced to waste as much time as you all did in practices it seems. There is about 4 relevant posts in this thread and the rest are the same sad story/comments repeated over and over.  Please if you are going to post a serious thread try to post relevant information rather than repeating the same thing that was in the first couple of posts over and over again.

As for the situation, it's not a very hard concept. Get some refs like we used to have, I'm sure there are 5-6 active people who can take on this role without abusing it. We aren't children any more. If it's 3v1 or 4v1 and the score is like 11-4 the majority of us can tell who MAY possibly have a chance to win based on opponents and who can't possibly win. If it's 3v1 11-4 and there is 10 minutes left, lets face it, this game can just end now.  If a player is not engaging, end it, this is easy to tell. Sitting back and lobbing and then running if the enemy drives towards you is not considered engaging. Yes, it's a judgement call when people are engaging or not, but there are plenty of situations where people are "engaging" where the game can just be ended regardless.

This entire discussion is ridiculous. How many times have topics like this been brought up? Either do something about this, or just remove the engaging garbage from the rules. How many times must we have the same stupid discussions with nothing ever happening? If nothings going to happen then everyone should stop posting this nonsense. If something is going to change, then hurry up and change it.

[Odin]

I'm unaware of any rules regarding this situation, I'm not even sure that there should be any. Riot is free to play as he wants.

The only constructive way to do something like this would be to:

1. Have shorter time max for practices. Pracs these days rarely get to this point and this would force more action. Vast majority of pracs are over within 15 mins anyways.
2. Have the bot count time differently when a single player is left... I'm not sure I feel good about this though. It would reduce time spent chasing a loner, and put pressure on them to engage, but I'd much rather have option 1.

The problem with refs policing something like this is that there's always personal bias.

[Caerbannog]

(12-06-2014, 04:00 AM)Surrey Wrote:  As for the situation, it's not a very hard concept. Get some refs like we used to have, I'm sure there are 5-6 active people who can take on this role without abusing it. We aren't children any more. If it's 3v1 or 4v1 and the score is like 11-4 the majority of us can tell who MAY possibly have a chance to win based on opponents and who can't possibly win. If it's 3v1 11-4 and there is 10 minutes left, lets face it, this game can just end now.  If a player is not engaging, end it, this is easy to tell. Sitting back and lobbing and then running if the enemy drives towards you is not considered engaging. Yes, it's a judgement call when people are engaging or not, but there are plenty of situations where people are "engaging" where the game can just be ended regardless.

I / (we? no one? most people?) don't WANT to end pracs based on who could or could not still win it. That would be very much a "dick move". Maybe the people who currently would fall under the "he won't turn this game" will learn to pick their spots and be eligible to play it out?

[Three]

(12-05-2014, 06:07 PM)mindriot Wrote:  

(12-05-2014, 05:55 PM)BlueGoku Wrote:  Not only is it common sense, but it's the decent thing to do to spec when you are 1v3. It's not a league game, the lost erating is negligible, and you were probably already above 0 on regular rating. I wasn't there, but based on the log it is pretty clear the arena was not going to survive a 1v3 runfest. Why not do the decent thing and spec?

As for the ban, obviously it wouldn't have come to that if you had manned up and sat so that you could (most likely) play another game at 4v4. In a dying game I have no idea why we are still banning people for a week at a time (especially coinciding with what is supposed to be a competitive league). This whole situation is dumb and childish.

I've seen many instances where a player won a 3 on 1 or a 4 on 1. When did it suddenly become "cool" to give up when you feel you can win? 

Winning a 3 on 1 or a 4 on 1 is the ultimate victory and makes this game even more fun to play. I was playing for myself and for my team, and to maintain our win streak. I earned every right to do so as we won 5 games before losing this one. You don't just let a streak go because someone deems it impossible, that is not the way of a warrior.

Once again, if you cannot trap and kill 1 pilot with 3, that is actively engaging and killing you 1 by 1, than you probably need to work on your skills.

I was in the same situation the other day, facing 2 pilots alone, one of which was saiyan... I lasted no more than 3 to 4 minutes. I'm sorry that Odin doesn't have the skills saiyan does but that does not mean I'm going to just give up for him.

Also, I find this whole arena killing argument silly. Our game occurred shortly after midnight if I am not mistaken, practice matches usually run to about 1:30am. Still plenty of players and time to play.

Reading above and below posts.... Christ I can't believe I am typing this, Caerbannog, Odin, and Surrey have good points.

In all fairness, if you're down 3v1 or 4v1 and not making any headway because your opponents aren't Nightwatch or some AML team, you're going to lose. It's your prerogative to run and mine, sure.... pick people off that are over firing........ but anyone with common sense knows its inherently wrong and it kills arenas if your chances are slim to none to win. If you don't understand that then there isn't anything to talk about. In those situations I always have my team stand still and force the dumb-ass who honestly thinks he can win to engage. He has to come to you, shrug. Problem of chasing solved - the guys who aren't chasing don't look stupid, it's the one who needs 6+ kills in 10 minutes who does. I would employ that strategy the next time someone tries to be cute. That or TK each-other for repels and rockets and get in terriers/weasels. Still.... the person who has 1 in 230482304823890423904239239 chance to win, should spec.

Rage was in the wrong. I was involved in the first ban as I was hammered and went on the "FIVE LIVES" tirade when he did the exact same thing to me. I wish he was banned, but not for the match tomorrow.

"I've seen many instances where a player won a 3 on 1 or a 4 on 1." I would like to see those logs.

[Crescendo]

Subspace drama awww yeah. 4v1 is garbage time, 3v1 is usually garbage time unless it's like 9-9 or 9-10. Even then, that's never going to be winnable assuming the team with more players plays soundly (in my opinion).

So, that said, obviously the guy should spec.., but I can also think of reasons he shouldn't. (maybe his team was terrible and all his teammates died out in 5 minutes? and he was waiting for half an hour to get a prac in? or what if he wants to style and make the 3 players look bad cause they're newbs. i know those scenarios don't apply here, but just food for thought)

HOWEVER, the most important thing to i'd like to say is that this entire event/controversy is pretty stupid. i'm sure you all can give less fucks about pracstats/winning/losing pracs. caring enough to want to seriously win a 1v3 prac is bad, caring enough to have someone kicked and sub in on another name is also bad. like wtf this isn't even a league match, quit being babies