Calling all map makers

[Arctos]

<div>The council has started discussing the possibility of a new pro map. Although most are reluctant I think we at least give it a chance to see what we can come up with and so I ask the public to see if there's anyone out there who is willing to produce a map that could be considered as a future league map.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>To get it started I have submitted two maps which hallu has put up in test arenas. We also have the maps that was submitted for a pro map contest in 2001 but most if not all of those where rejected by the general public. I have attached them along with my maps to this forum post if anyone is interested.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>?go 4v4arc1</div>
<div></div>
<div>This is a new map. It has a fair amount of open space and mostly familiar structures.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>?go 4v4arcwide</div>
<div></div>
<div>This is a rather old map, 2006 I think, that has been up and tested in prac arenas before.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you are interested in making a map feel free to contact me if you need help getting started. If you are set on your own and want to submit a map, contact hallu and I'm sure he can help put it up for a test run.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Please use this thread to post comments about the maps. I will keep this updated if or when we receive new submissions. We'll let this run it's coarse and at the end of the season, if we have one or more submissions with a general approval, it will be taken up for further discussion in the council. If after this everyone thinks we should keep the same map we will try again in another 10 years.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>/Arc</div>

[Ozn]

I really like the first one Arctos. I think we should try it in the prac arenas.

[Plutorus]

I really like 4v4arc1. Possibly the first map I've seen (albeit w/o playtesting) that I like better than the standard map. 

 

-Plut

[PsyOps]

Im not a 4v4 player so im not sure how much my suggestion will weigh in. 

 

How about incorporating a collapsible arena as well. This would require bot mods though, so i don't know if it is possible. Just my 2 cents.

 

Maybe have the map split into 4 parts. Once the count goes down to a specified count, and once all players are in the same quadrant, close off that section.

[Plarep]

I think any new map should have two goals in mind:

1. It should be smaller in size than the current map (less flying from point a to b just to get to the action or chase forever).
2. The density of the map structures should be the same as the current map (if the map becomes too dense it becomes proball/warzone where you aren't flying and aiming as much as bouncing and more bouncing).
   

For 4v4arc1, I like that the map is slightly smaller by cutting the corners off, but the space in the center of the map is too empty and could use a couple random rocks to bounce off of. Better yet, I wonder if the map could be made slightly smaller by moving the "first ring" of structure slightly closer to the center (and moving everything else inward correspondingly).

 

4v4arcwide is too big.

[Captor]

i think wide map would work Better, since most ppl have widescreens these days.

Current map size we have is toi big, like Plare said.

In pracs and games there are moments you fly around searching for teammates and \or opponents for too long imo. those moments would reduce to minimum with a slighty smaller map.

 

t

[hallucination]

I've put up 4v4 bots in those two arenas: 4v4arc1 and 4v4arcwide so you can prac on those maps. Test shark is in those arenas also (same settings as 4v4test) - this is the same shark that has been in league but with a slightly faster fire rate - which is the same shark that has been very successful in Chaos as an offensive alternative to the weasel. It needs thorough play testing in league (the current shark is almost never used in league now). Remember to do !norating first if you don't want your stats to count while testing it. I advise to use one shark per team max (like you would in a match) for now.

I would come out strongly for a distinctly smaller map for two reasons:
1) Is running a play style that league wants to encourage? Make the map small enough so running is more difficult.
2) League play has always been very defensive; a smaller map might make it a little more offensive.
However, the map must not be so small that a pilot can't get clearly separated (even lost a bit) from his squad.

Wide map vs. any shape isn't affected by display aspect ratio since the map is (much) larger than the display, so that's not a factor in choosing the map. Play dynamics should be the determining factor.

Any new map (and all these points) would need extensive testing.

--hallu

[Caerbannog]

A larger map does help the team that is pushing, gets a kill and gets a 3v4 out of it though.

The smaller you go, the faster the dude who just died is going to line bomb his (or her?) way back in. Also... spawning into action sucks massive balls.

[Plutorus]

Quote:<div>
A larger map does help the team that is pushing, gets a kill and gets a 3v4 out of it though.

The smaller you go, the faster the dude who just died is going to line bomb his (or her?) way back in. Also... spawning into action sucks massive balls.

</div>

 

Dunno, my take is that the majority of aggressive/pushing teams wouldn't mind a smaller map

 

-Plut

[Plutorus]

Quote:<div>
For 4v4arc1, I like that the map is slightly smaller by cutting the corners off, but the space in the center of the map is too empty and could use a couple random rocks to bounce off of. 

</div>

 

My first impression is that I like the smaller map and prefer a less-cluttered center. As it stands now, everyone wastes time circling around the pair of large columns in the middle of our standard map; in 4v4arc1, he seems to have pushed those two columns outward from the center, letting teams get down to business...

 

The center is very sparse. Personally, I probably prefer this, but I could see how others may find it barren. A few more rocks or small objects might provide more balance.

 

-Plut

[mindriot]

Quote:<div>
 

<div>The council has started discussing the possibility of a new pro map. Although most are reluctant I think we at least give it a chance to see what we can come up with and so I ask the public to see if there's anyone out there who is willing to produce a map that could be considered as a future league map.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>To get it started I have submitted two maps which hallu has put up in test arenas. We also have the maps that was submitted for a pro map contest in 2001 but most if not all of those where rejected by the general public. I have attached them along with my maps to this forum post if anyone is interested.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>?go 4v4arc1</div>
<div></div>
<div>This is a new map. It has a fair amount of open space and mostly familiar structures.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>?go 4v4arcwide</div>
<div></div>
<div>This is a rather old map, 2006 I think, that has been up and tested in prac arenas before.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you are interested in making a map feel free to contact me if you need help getting started. If you are set on your own and want to submit a map, contact hallu and I'm sure he can help put it up for a test run.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Please use this thread to post comments about the maps. I will keep this updated if or when we receive new submissions. We'll let this run it's coarse and at the end of the season, if we have one or more submissions with a general approval, it will be taken up for further discussion in the council. If after this everyone thinks we should keep the same map we will try again in another 10 years.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>/Arc</div>
 

</div>

Fantastic work good sir! happy to try them both!

[Arctos]

Thanks for all the feedback. From what I've read here and talked to people in game there seems to be alot of difference in opinions. Which is good, a map should be a bit uncomfortable for everyone without forcing a specific style of play. But that's just my opinion.

 

I will tweak these maps during the season, based on feedback (keep it coming) and with some help from a few people.

 

Still looking forward to seeing what the general public can come up with, get to work.

[Ozn]

Played on arc1 last night and it seemed a bit too spaced out. The placement of walls and objects had a unnatural flow as well because the center is rounded versus box-like which is what we're all used to. It seems like it would take a while for everyone to get used to it.

 

I realize we're testing out new ideas but after playing on something different last night it became clear that league won't be receptive to it. Hearing what everyone was saying, changing back to old arena, etc...

 

Made me think. Every league game and championship has been played on the same map for 15+ years. If a new map is put into place and a team wins - the league population that hates the map will deem the win null. This could degrade the quality of league even more and it would likely result in the map changing back or a population drop-off.

 

I hate comparing spaceships to real-life sports but let's entertain it for a second. Football, soccer, baseball, etc all play on the same field and have been for decades. Aside from establishing standards applicable to the field for a given sport, the teams practice and have become acclimated with its form-factor and structure over time. If you were to change the field then players would be spending more time re-learning the field versus focusing on the game itself.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Arctos]

Quote:<div>
I hate comparing spaceships to real-life sports but let's entertain it for a second. Football, soccer, baseball, etc all play on the same field and have been for decades. Aside from establishing standards applicable to the field for a given sport, the teams practice and have become acclimated with its form-factor and structure over time. If you were to change the field then players would be spending more time re-learning the field versus focusing on the game itself.

</div>

<div> </div>
<div>That's a very valid point, which I agree with to some degree. Then again this is Subspace, and the maps in every zone has evolved or been replaced over the years, even the league map although it has been roughly the same for over a decade.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>We will see. At least it has become clear that a new map needs to resemble the current one in structure and the type of games it produces. The current map to me is also flawed in some areas and I'm still hoping we can come up with something better. Then it will be up to the players to decide.</div>

[ufotable]

How about testing the new maps in preseason in game situations? I agree with Ozn's point as well and preseason makes for a low risk way to test how they play.

[Tunahead]

Quote:<div>
I hate comparing spaceships to real-life sports but let's entertain it for a second. Football, soccer, baseball, etc all play on the same field and have been for decades. Aside from establishing standards applicable to the field for a given sport, the teams practice and have become acclimated with its form-factor and structure over time. If you were to change the field then players would be spending more time re-learning the field versus focusing on the game itself.

</div>

 

Good point. I guess you could argue that changing the map could force people to become a bit more active to learn the characteristic of the new map. Although, I believe in reality it wouldn't have much of an effect. On the contrary, I was trying out 4v4arcwide a couple of days ago, didn't like it, felt it was too crowded and kind of reminded me of warzone, so I just lost the will to play until the map is changed back to normal (or something different) again.

 

In my opinion, if we change the map, it should be a slightly modified version of the good old league map. Maybe make it slightly smaller or so.

[Three]

Quote:<div>
 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Ozn" data-cid="289489" data-time="1394199663">
<div>
I hate comparing spaceships to real-life sports but let's entertain it for a second. Football, soccer, baseball, etc all play on the same field and have been for decades. Aside from establishing standards applicable to the field for a given sport, the teams practice and have become acclimated with its form-factor and structure over time. If you were to change the field then players would be spending more time re-learning the field versus focusing on the game itself.

</div>

 

Good point. I guess you could argue that changing the map could force people to become a bit more active to learn the characteristic of the new map. Although, I believe in reality it wouldn't have much of an effect. On the contrary, I was trying out 4v4arcwide a couple of days ago, didn't like it, felt it was too crowded and kind of reminded me of warzone, so I just lost the will to play until the map is changed back to normal (or something different) again.

 

In my opinion, if we change the map, it should be a slightly modified version of the good old league map. Maybe make it slightly smaller or so.

 

</div>
</blockquote>
 

Completely agree.

[hallucination]

As an example/test, ?go 4v4tiny

I don't think this is small enough yet to make much of a difference though. I could be wrong!

Ozn has a good point about 'legitimacy' of a season win on any other map.

The only reasons I can see to change map would be to try and affect the dynamics of game - specifically: tone down running; keep players closer together to create more offensive play. I'm not sure either goal is a good one, or something the league/players want. Are there other reasons to do this other than "change of pace/keeping things fresh"?

--hallu

[hallucination]

New version of the tiny map is up and has a bot to try it out.

The major question is if it's small enough to actually affect game play or not.

--hallu

[Plarep]

I like 4v4tiny except for the lancs. Lancs are pretty much absolutely ridiculous on that map and would need a bounce removed or something.